Why do you care so much about gender issues?

[GCScot]

Longtime lurker, first time poster.

I'm fully GC, mainly due to this board. So first of all, thank you for all the excellent thoughtful discussion!

DH and most of my family are also GC. But they don't care about it anywhere near as much as me. This got me wondering - why do some of us care so much about gender ideology?

My reasons are:

1. I'm a lifelong feminist. Gender ideology causes so many issues for women. But the attempted redefinition of the very word woman feels like an actual existential threat

1. I'm a lifelong lefty. Finding myself on 'the other side' to left-wing political parties, friends, and institutions I have trusted all my life (The Guardian, BBC, NHS, universities) has completely thrown me. Am I wrong? If I'm not wrong, how have they gone so spectacularly wrong?

1. I have a science background. The (wilful?) ignorance of the basic science of biological sex and the prioritisation of feelings over facts enrages me

1. I have personally had a double mastectomy and hormone therapy for breast cancer. These were extreme medical treatments to save my life and have long-term health repercussions - I am at high risk of heart disease and osteoporosis. The fact that physically healthy children and vulnerable young people are being encouraged to undergo these treatments makes me sad and angry

1. The 'No debate' aspect of this issue is totally against my values. I work for a fully captured institution (Scottish university) and being unable to freely speak about this issue means that it is frequently running through my mind

Do any of the above resonate with others? Do you have any additional reasons why you care so much about this issue?

I agree that the libertarian/authoritarian divide is a separate issue from left/right (which I see as primiarly economic).

That said there is a tendency for right wing free market capitalists to be relatively libertarian, and left wing socialists to be authoritarian. It is hard to control the means of production if you are libertarian and in many ways it is hard to be authoritarian when giving companies and consumers freedom to produce, buy and sell.

Indeed.

I don't know what other women think or feel, except in so far as we have bodies that share characteristics, e.g. periods, and childbirth. Of course, within this there is huge variation - some find periods debilitating, others don't. Some die in childbirth, most (thankfully) don't. But no men experience these things. Plus, we are different statistically in strength and height.

We also share characteristics due to those sexed bodies and the way that society treats us - lower pay, much higher likelihood of rape/sexual assault, double standards on sexual conduct, expectations of caring for children or the elderly.

All these things come down to our sexed bodies and are not shared by any men.

Completely free-market capitalism would allow anyone to buy anything without restriction. It wouldn't prohibit slavery, child labour, prostitution, sale of human organs, drug dealing, sales of lethal weapons.

I don't think any modern country allows all those things - virtually everyone agrees there should be some restrictions to capitalism. Left and right just disagree where the line should be drawn

I remember seeing an article that had studied F2M that had detransitioned. They found that a high number were actually autistic females.

I can see the process being "I like women. men are meant to like women, there fore there is something wrong with a woman liking women".

I also think that we have actually moved more towards segregating male and female traits, especially in kids, than equality. I grew up in the 80s and 90s and no one batted eye if the girls dressed like boys and were digging in the mud - well until you LOOK like a female in your teens.

I always say I identify as a potato.

I have a unique point here in that my partner XD. They believe very firmly in Trans rights.
I admit it makes me angry because they do what would be called the 'fun' part of being a woman.
When I come home and they have been swaning about dressed as a female all day, but the house is a freaking tip, and all the housework that ME THE BIO FEMALE is expected to do is not done, that makes it feel more unfair. I have literally said, swan about in a maids outfit all you want......but role play properly and be the maid!

Even more so given that I also do a lot of the 'MALE' tasks.....

Now, would they face danger going out in their getup - most likely - they do not pass.

I have nearly died having kids. I am a very female looking female and I looked like an adult from the age of 13, so I have suffered from all the 'interest' that comes with that.

I fed with my breasts. My children came from my uterus as I am a woman that gave birth. I am a manager at the same level as some men at work - but I still get expected to make the coffee...
I do not support M2F in female sports. But I also don't give 2 hoots if they use the same loos as me and my kids - technically all the male relative and friends we have are more of a risk to them - But changing rooms is another matter if they are open plan same sex with like no cubicles - if you don't want to be in the room with a peen you should not be forces! Just as I would not except men you put up with my and my growler in their changing room. Cooncil ones and unisex and we cope fine there.

My eldest is very much live and let live, but even at her teenage she laughs at how people who do not want to be labeled crap the bed if you miss label them. She says if you look like a duck, I'm going to call it a duck. It cannot get angry at me because I cannot read it's mind to see it identifies as a Crow.

But, do I also believe that there are people who are the wrong brain in the wrong body - yes. As I have said above, I identify as a potato. I am not sure how to put it into words but like, I know I am a female, I like that I am different from men, I like that I can use what god gave me to get what I want. I also like being able to flip bales, and defend myself. But I don't know if I have a feeling of being one or the other. Like, I feel it matters, but I wish it didn't matter, and I think its crazy that it all does matter.
I am aware that is utter confusion.

There is a creator on TIKTOK that I follow that has a very rational approach to it all. Davina I think their name is. I believe they aren't overly popular as they are a m2f that is transitioning but who calls out GC bullcrap. They state that they are not, nor will they ever be a woman - no matter hoe much surgery they have. They are so rational.

But, do I also believe that there are people who are the wrong brain in the wrong body - yes.

This is absolutely 100% not possible. You are what you are.

I’m young enough (24) that I went to school with people who were “transitioning” at 12/13, close friends with one of them. Saw the way it was never questioned by parents or the school just enabled and the blockers and hormones were explained to me, I thought it was batshit then and still do now. Somewhere along the way I stumbled upon a trans surgery Reddit forum. Crazy stuff.
I also had kids young (16) so I’m probably more invested than most because I have a reason to care and have seen for myself how much of a trend it was.

Im curious if any teachers are here and know if the trend is starting to die off?

Because it (I thought at the time) destroyed my life* when my husband decided he was a woman. Then I wanted to help other women in the same situation, and not buying into the gaslighting is an essential part of that.

*My life wasn’t destroyed in the long run but that’s only due to my own strength and the love and help of friends and family.

It is inhumane to incarcerate male bodied criminals with, often very vulnerable, females.

Throw in sport, rape crisis centres, and other places where single spaces are needed or can be justified and it matters. A lot.

100%.

I think that these is a massive irony that even the hard left, people who call themselves "literal communists", love certain aspects of capitalism and don;t think of communism as taking away any of the good bits of capitalism.

On the other hand the richest free market business owners are the most entitled so and sos when it comes to moaning about failing public services, and rely much more on the state than ordinary people (and ordinary person relies on the state to educate his or her kids, rich business owners rely on it to educate thousand of it's future employees)

Absolutely! Business owners rely on all the functioning infrastructure of the state: education and healthcare so their staff are educated and healthy, roads to transport goods, law enforcement to protect their property, etc etc

Thanks for this post @GCScot. I don't have anything to add to PPs about 'why', - we all know - but it's good to know that I'm not alone in caring as much as I do.

But it's all quite recent, for me.

I'm GenX and I'm a latecomer to Mumsnet. I remember I started to get incensed with the case of the male murderer called Scarlet Blake who was reported in the BBC news as a 'woman'. (He killed a cat and a man, and the cat got my attention). I was annoyed enough to complain to the BBC that Blake wasn't a woman blah blah and then of course got the bollocks brush off.

Then I started lurking here and learnt a whole lot more. I'm amazed that not ALL women are up in arms about it.

But I also know that for years I was oblivious, while women were already fighting this.

At least the majority of public opinion has turned and is now supporting the rational view that transvestite men shouldn't be competing in women's sport. People find it difficult to defend that, no matter how 'kind' they'd like to be.

I agree that transphobia has been pitched as the next exciting prejudice after homophobia. And so unthinkers think it's equivalent, and jump on the virtue-signal bandwagon, without any thought to the consequences for women's rights.

I would love to 'recruit' more to the cause but I think it has to happen naturally with the beat beat beat of the employment tribunal cases. I have a feminist friend who still doesn't understand the actual nastiness of these men.

One thing that the stream of Employment Tribunals are demonstrating is how deeply anti social / anti work ethic so many transactivists are.
Upton with his sinister making notes about Sandie Peggie when she stepped outside the changing room when he was in there. Followed by the vast amount of NHS staff time and ££ being spent on resolving his personal demand to change with unconsenting women.
The psychologist Haech Lockwoood who sued and lost against her NHS trust employer over repeated "deadnaming and misgendering" because she self identified as non binary and having read the judgment, evidently harassed her colleagues into complying with her preferred language.

That's just 2 recent examples. Almost every court case showcases anti social and bullying behaviour by transactivists. Behaviour that undermines a cohesive efficient workplace built on constructive working relationships.

Bring your whole self to work does nothing for the emotionally incontinent transactivists who need to start prioritising workplace needs, not personal wishes.

100%, genuinely honest question: how can you use "they" In the plural for someone you know? Isn't it a bit like saying that person has schizophrenia or a multiple personality disorder? Don't you hear how absurd that sounds?
At least in French we have the made-up pronoun iel for "non-binary". It's singular.

Unlike our very modern "iel", the English singular "they" is centuries-old 😉

This would annoy me so much, I guess at least your DH doesn’t think he is an actual woman. Men can wear maid outfits if they want, I would prefer it if they could go out in whatever clothes, and not worry about having people think they ARE women. Passing is such a red herring. Gender diversity acceptance should be more normal, not conforming to narrow dress rules.

Honestly, if you put this post in relationships, I think you’d get some more specific responses, your DH sounds really annoying, I guess he has many redeeming qualities and you think about these issues more then most people.

@Donury236your experience is not unique, unfortunately. See the trans widows threads.

Yes, I've read Shakespeare (Marlowe, Jonathan Swift, Jane Austen, you name them) as well as Agatha Christie, thank you. And I would be quite interested if you could find me a centuries old literary reference where "they + plural" is used when referring to a person who is well identified.

"I can see the process being "I like women. men are meant to like women, there fore there is something wrong with a woman liking women".

I do wonder whether some of this is "I want the people I fancy to look at me like they look at the opposite sex".

Because they are young and maybe autistic, the reality that there are more straight people than gay people, and that everyones first crushes are unrequited hasn't registered yet. And they haven't experienced the difference between the monochrome inner drama of unrequited love and the body slam fireworks of mutual attraction that once they feel it will make people who might fancy them more attractive than people who won't.

So for now all they know is that they fancy the same sex but all the people they fancy are straight. And surely if they were gay, the people they fancy would be gay, right? So I can see how a young maybe autistic person growing up with the idea of trans identity might think maybe that means they are actually straight too, the opposite sex and straight, just in the wrong body.

To be clear, I'm not envisioning someone with internalised homophobia who on some level doesn't want to be gay, more an intersection of naivety and theoretical thinking that might lead someone to conclude their same sex attraction was the straight attraction of a trans person

So so sorry to read this. Wishing her and you everything strength and hope that she comes through safely somehow. The fact that she's already on cross sex hormones and planning mastectomy must be so hard to bear. Just wanted to send a hug

Mainly because of the dishonesty. Non gender critical people know that people of the male sex can’t be women. It’s an indisputable fact. So to watch them blatantly lie online and make supposedly scientific arguments about spectrums and seahorses and pretend they see no difference at all between a transwoman and their own mother makes me lose ever more respect for them.

Transgender people deserve to live their lives free of discrimination and I wish them all nog good things. But they aren’t women. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. So why can’t you say it.

You're being confusing. You accept that singular they is a common construct, so why are you arguing that it makes the person it's used for sound like they (!) have multiple personalities? It doesn't. Just because it's used for a non-binary person, or in any other circumstance where the speaker doesn't wish to indicate the person's sex for whatever reason ("My friend called, they need my help!") doesn't magically strip it of its singular quality.

*only good things

Wouldn’t have thought much about it years ago when there was the odd MtF in the town who dressed like ‘normal’ women. Then came the onslaught MtF AGPs wondering around in rubber mini dresses and stripper heels, being made to use a unisex loo at a wedding finding myself confronted with drunk men coming out of cubicles still doing up their trousers, young teenage girls with obvious autistic tendencies on testosterone and the degradation of women’s sex based rights