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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #59

1000 replies

nauticant · 12/12/2025 19:37

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

Following handing down of the judgment on 8 December 2025, on 11 December 2025, it was announced by Sandie Peggie and her legal team that they would be pursuing an appeal.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025
Thread 58: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5458443-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-58 11 December 2025 to 12 December 2025

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62
Easytoconfuse · 13/12/2025 09:41

Alpacajigsaw · 13/12/2025 09:15

I’m worried about Scotland, and why decisions like Sandie’s are happening.

Until fairly recently, setting aside the more extreme TRA element, I had assumed that most people including the Scottish Government were doing the wrong thing, but at trying to do it for the right reasons. I thought the motivation was a genuine (if misguided) attempt to prevent discrimination against a group they viewed as vulnerable.

However despite clarification in FWS, and the UK Government’s intervention on the GRR Bill, Scottish public institutions are continuing to tie themselves in knots to ignore those. They’re advancing positions that look legally incoherent, practically unworkable, and frankly ridiculous and making themselves and Scottish institutions a laughing stock to the majority of the public.

I know many TRAs expected Sandie Peggie to win comprehensively after FWS.

But why? What’s really going on up here?

The usual explanation offered is “well-funded TERF groups”, and JKR, but that just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. The opposing parties in these cases are not marginal campaigners, they are government departments, NHS boards, large corporations etc. They are the establishment, not the “TERFs”.
Yet the narrative is perpetuated that they are the David in a David v Goliath situation. I find it extremely strange and puzzling and am curious as to the reasons why.

It's so nice being a victim. Nothing's ever your fault, is it? Someone kindly explained this to me a long, long way up the thread.

  1. The victim has extra rights
  2. Those who support the victim are lovely kind people who other people will admire (and promote!)
  3. (My addition) The people arguing with you aren't really people, are they? They're nasty, mean, and, to quote Jane Russell, have rights that aren't worthy of consideration in a democratic society. And you have POWER. Okay, it isn't legal power but the process is the punishment so it might as well be. Never underestimate the power of the blob, across society. Ask any parent of a disabled child how often the law is dismissed with an airy 'that's not how we do it here' followed by 'it's your bad parenting that's the problem.'
Alpacajigsaw · 13/12/2025 09:42

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 13/12/2025 09:32

Kemp found otherwise, and I agree with him, because sexual harassment has an intentionality component.

Don't think for a moment I favour mixed-sex provision! Objectively it is more disadvantageous to women than single-sex provision (and I disagree with Kemp's finding that they are not more disadvantaged than men thereby, but as it's a fact finding I guess we're stuck with it for now).

But imagine a universe where everyone is TWAW? Then women would not feel sexually harassed by the mere presence of a TW. So I think this could come down to protected belief, not sex discrimination.

I agree. I don’t think necessarily think it is sexual harassment. But I do think it harassment related to sex. Which Big Sond almost, but not quite, found

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 13/12/2025 09:43

prh47bridge · 13/12/2025 08:44

I would be amazed if the SC ruled that workplaces were different. The reasoning they applied to changing rooms in the context of the EA had nothing to do with whether they were being provided by employers or as a service. They would consider their own precedent and, although it is not binding on them, it is hard to see how they could argue that workplace changing rooms were different from other changing rooms, even if they wanted to (which I doubt).

The examples given in the SC ruling were about workplaces. You can choose to discriminate on basis of sex when hiring if your accommodation and sanitary facilities can only accommodate one sex in limited areas.

There is no other interpretation.

ContentedAlpaca · 13/12/2025 09:45

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 13/12/2025 09:32

Kemp found otherwise, and I agree with him, because sexual harassment has an intentionality component.

Don't think for a moment I favour mixed-sex provision! Objectively it is more disadvantageous to women than single-sex provision (and I disagree with Kemp's finding that they are not more disadvantaged than men thereby, but as it's a fact finding I guess we're stuck with it for now).

But imagine a universe where everyone is TWAW? Then women would not feel sexually harassed by the mere presence of a TW. So I think this could come down to protected belief, not sex discrimination.

But to not feel harassed you would have to believe that tw are actual women.

I was very happy to make a polite pretence in social settings that I saw the transwomen I was around as women.
At the time, because this was pre me hearing the term TWAW I didn't know that I was supposed to ignore what my own eyes and instincts were feeding back to me and somehow believe they were actual women. I thought everyone was on the same page with making a polite pretence. It was always jarring when one of them referred to himself as 'silly girl' etc.

My mind was focused once I was required to share a hotel room. At that point none of my instincts said that this person who you know and like is a woman, they said this is a man you know and like, just like the other men you know and like and wouldn't share a sleeping space with.

I wonder how many women who think TWAW would have no instincts that scream out to the contrary once having to get changed or be in a room while they get changed.

EdithStourton · 13/12/2025 09:47

@Sskka
It happened by stealth and I’m not even sure much of it was deliberate. But in a way that makes me despise what Labour did even more – the absolute carelessness with which they treated what should have been most precious.
One of my ongoing beefs with Labour is that it so often seems entirely clueless about history. There is reason why some things persist for generations. Sometimes it is a bad reason, and sometimes it is a good one, and it helps to work out which it is before you rush in to change it.

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 13/12/2025 09:47

NotanotherWeek · 13/12/2025 08:55

However, this is not just a lower court misunderstanding the FWS judgment. That happens, and the SC would leave that to the appeal process. This is egregious distortion of their words to reach a conclusion inimical to their judgment. It is astonishing. I can’t believe there won’t be words about that behind closed doors. They will be apoplectic. No litigant will agree to go before Kemp ever again, so he’ll have to go. But that won’t help Sandie, who has to plod on doggedly. It might give the EAT pause for thought, though, should they consider trying anything similar

I wish that were true - but all these ones have slopey shoulders. It all seems to fizzle out

ContentedAlpaca · 13/12/2025 09:49

ContentedAlpaca · 13/12/2025 09:35

Or could he have done a 'correct all spelling mistakes' with the American setting on?'

I am surprised that anyone my age and older would find the use of 'z' in anything they wrote to be acceptable. It was not a construct I was taught back in the 70s and still looks wrong to my eyes.

And now I think about it, if it had simply been included with the 'z' in place, rather than later altered by a spell checker, wouldn't that have been a massive clue to SK at the time that it hadn't come from the document it purported to be from.

prh47bridge · 13/12/2025 09:49

Alpacajigsaw · 13/12/2025 09:42

I agree. I don’t think necessarily think it is sexual harassment. But I do think it harassment related to sex. Which Big Sond almost, but not quite, found

We are dealing with the EA definition of sexual harassment in section 26. There is no intentionality requirement there. All that matters is that A engages in unwanted conduct of a sexual nature and the conduct has the purpose or effect of violating B's dignity or creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for B. If, therefore, Upton's behaviour was unwanted conduct of a sexual nature and it violated Sandie's dignity, or created an intimidating environment for her, that is sexual harassment regardless of whether Upton intended to violate her dignity or intimidate her.

Alpacajigsaw · 13/12/2025 09:53

prh47bridge · 13/12/2025 09:49

We are dealing with the EA definition of sexual harassment in section 26. There is no intentionality requirement there. All that matters is that A engages in unwanted conduct of a sexual nature and the conduct has the purpose or effect of violating B's dignity or creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for B. If, therefore, Upton's behaviour was unwanted conduct of a sexual nature and it violated Sandie's dignity, or created an intimidating environment for her, that is sexual harassment regardless of whether Upton intended to violate her dignity or intimidate her.

I know what it says. I think establishing Upton’s conduct was of a sexual nature was always a stretch. But I do think it was harassment related to the protected characteristic of sex

prh47bridge · 13/12/2025 09:53

DuchessofReality · 13/12/2025 08:55

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2024/1155/contents

Here are the employment tribunal procedure rules and section 12 is ‘reconsideration of judgement’ which can be on application by the parties or on the Tribunal’s own initiative.

In practice though, I don’t think this is the sort of case where that would happen. It may happen, for example, if neither side drew the attention of the judge to an extremely important precedent setting case and he only realised afterwards.

if the Tribunal President, or indeed someone higher up in the hierarchy, is very concerned about this case, I think it could probably be fast tracked so the appeal is heard quickly, which would be the ‘easiest’ way to deal with it.

Indeed, but I don't think that is what those calling for the judgement to be withdrawn meant. In any event, I agree that this judgement is well beyond something that could be rescued by reconsideration.

DustyWindowsills · 13/12/2025 09:54

Shortshriftandlethal · 13/12/2025 08:10

It would not surprise me at all. During the hearing he seemed generally disinterested and seemed to find the whole business a chore. Always late to start, early to finish

Yes, that was noticeable even via Tribunal Tweets, though I was hoping against hope that he would subsequently knuckle down and engage with the evidence. It looks more as if he handed the whole lot over to a couple of colleagues wearing rainbow-tinted spectacles, and said "What do you think of all this?"

GallantKumquat · 13/12/2025 09:54

BaronMunchausen · 13/12/2025 09:21

I must say I don’t see the -ize suffixes as evidence that AI was used. I’ve scolded LLMs for using American spellings, so when I’m logged in they consistently use -ise. I reckon the misquotes (Forstater, gay cake) strongly suggest Kemp and his team did indeed use LLMs, but in the case of the suffixes one of the team not setting their word processor to English-UK is just as likely. Surprising though that the whole document wasn't submitted to a final spellcheck.

Whatever the reason, it’s notable that when he quotes another judgement (Bellinger), he uses -ized - but the original judgement uses -ised. This suggests that he may have used a secondary source for the quote.

I’ve scolded LLMs for using American spellings

😂🤣. I'm surprise it didn't engage you with: "That's an interesting observation. Let's unpack it carefully..." and then regale you with the fact that while both have suffixes have traditionally been used in American and British English, -ize is (usually) the more etymologically correct and that British -ise is reactionary to American prevalence of -ize rather than a consistent, traditional usage.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 13/12/2025 09:55

Random question:

"Victimisation" has a particular meaning in law when related to the Equality Act. Does altering the spelling alter the meaning legally speaking?

usedtobeaylis · 13/12/2025 09:56

DustyWindowsills · 13/12/2025 09:54

Yes, that was noticeable even via Tribunal Tweets, though I was hoping against hope that he would subsequently knuckle down and engage with the evidence. It looks more as if he handed the whole lot over to a couple of colleagues wearing rainbow-tinted spectacles, and said "What do you think of all this?"

I thought that as well when I first heard about the made-up quotes. I wondered who on his team was a fully paid-up TRA.

EdithStourton · 13/12/2025 09:59

ContentedAlpaca · 13/12/2025 09:49

And now I think about it, if it had simply been included with the 'z' in place, rather than later altered by a spell checker, wouldn't that have been a massive clue to SK at the time that it hadn't come from the document it purported to be from.

Edited

If you're producing a properly checked piece of work, you check that your quotes tie in precisely (spelling, punctuation) with the original. You then make sure that your own words are spelt as per whichever version of English (or whatever language) that you're using.

At least, that's what I do.

Big Sond was sloppy at best, and bone idle at worst. And probably biased into the bargain.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/12/2025 10:14

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 13/12/2025 09:32

Kemp found otherwise, and I agree with him, because sexual harassment has an intentionality component.

Don't think for a moment I favour mixed-sex provision! Objectively it is more disadvantageous to women than single-sex provision (and I disagree with Kemp's finding that they are not more disadvantaged than men thereby, but as it's a fact finding I guess we're stuck with it for now).

But imagine a universe where everyone is TWAW? Then women would not feel sexually harassed by the mere presence of a TW. So I think this could come down to protected belief, not sex discrimination.

But most women don’t believe TIMs are really women. They are men. So I disagree. And some of these men also are doing it to further a sexual fetish, which is non consensually involving women in it, which is sexual harassment.

EweProfessorSurnameDoctorProfessor · 13/12/2025 10:24

From twitter:

@MForstater
Judge Kemp's ellipsis are so telling! What did he cut out here? 🤔

"They could be genetic, such as strength or height" !

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #59
Peregrina · 13/12/2025 10:26

It would not surprise me at all. During the hearing he seemed generally disinterested and seemed to find the whole business a chore. Always late to start, early to finish

Or another example was when he allowed one of the Consultants to waffle on for two hours about DSDs. The relevance of this to Upton? None. As far as anyone is aware including Upton himself, he doesn't have one.

But this again is straight out of the trans handbook where sex is a continuum.

prh47bridge · 13/12/2025 10:28

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 13/12/2025 09:55

Random question:

"Victimisation" has a particular meaning in law when related to the Equality Act. Does altering the spelling alter the meaning legally speaking?

No.

Sskka · 13/12/2025 10:30

EdithStourton · 13/12/2025 09:47

@Sskka
It happened by stealth and I’m not even sure much of it was deliberate. But in a way that makes me despise what Labour did even more – the absolute carelessness with which they treated what should have been most precious.
One of my ongoing beefs with Labour is that it so often seems entirely clueless about history. There is reason why some things persist for generations. Sometimes it is a bad reason, and sometimes it is a good one, and it helps to work out which it is before you rush in to change it.

Among the other things they abolished was Chesterton’s Fence.

123ZYX · 13/12/2025 10:31

EweProfessorSurnameDoctorProfessor · 13/12/2025 10:24

From twitter:

@MForstater
Judge Kemp's ellipsis are so telling! What did he cut out here? 🤔

"They could be genetic, such as strength or height" !

I can copy and paste on my phone but this is the full paragraph

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #59
123ZYX · 13/12/2025 10:32

It’s currently under review - full judgement here https://supremecourt.uk/uploads/uksc_2015_0161_judgment_e9fb892e8c.pdf

DustyWindowsills · 13/12/2025 10:37

MyThreeWords · 13/12/2025 08:24

From the wiki page about 'not even wrong' I especially like What you said was so confused that one could not tell whether it was nonsense or not.

I've mentioned something before on MN that I can't resist repeating now: When my son was a small child he asked me "Why can't you tackle in tennis?" It struck me as a great example of something too wrong to be put right.

(Interestingly, this is more-or-less Wittgenstein's view of the whole of philosophy.)

That's a good example.

For any future occasion when I have to explain to friends why I think gender woo is problematic (assuming I don't just chicken out and change the subject), I've got the established notion of "not even wrong" primed and ready to use.

I mean, it's not even pseudoscience. It's no kind of science at all.

MarieDeGournay · 13/12/2025 10:45

usedtobeaylis · 13/12/2025 09:07

You're not wrong. I've lost count of how many times I've read a variation of 'I don't like Sandy Peggie's other views therefore women shouldn't have these rights'.

You may have lost count of the number of times you've read that, but nobody has said that on this or previous threads, in fact they have been careful to say that all women are entitled to the same rights, e.g. single sex spaces, regardless.

If people are saying what you quote elsewhere, they are wrong and should be challenged wherever it is being said, but it's not necessary here because nobody said that here.

Sskka · 13/12/2025 10:49

BaronMunchausen · 13/12/2025 09:21

I must say I don’t see the -ize suffixes as evidence that AI was used. I’ve scolded LLMs for using American spellings, so when I’m logged in they consistently use -ise. I reckon the misquotes (Forstater, gay cake) strongly suggest Kemp and his team did indeed use LLMs, but in the case of the suffixes one of the team not setting their word processor to English-UK is just as likely. Surprising though that the whole document wasn't submitted to a final spellcheck.

Whatever the reason, it’s notable that when he quotes another judgement (Bellinger), he uses -ized - but the original judgement uses -ised. This suggests that he may have used a secondary source for the quote.

The misquotes are conclusive, I’d say. AI can quote, but it doesn’t know the value of the source it’s quoting from. A quote from the judge’s decision and a quote from commentary on that decision are all the same to it. Chances are those quotes will come from a blog or some article somewhere.

That’s why I’ve come to think AI will ultimately be a bust. It could conceivably work if the data sets it’s trained on were tightly controlled – but even then it can’t tell the difference between the judge’s decision and the bits where the judge is recording submissions made to him.

Anyway there’s probably already enough slop around for a good outcome to be impossible – and once activists understand that AI can be co-opted if they produce enough material containing their wishful thinking, forget about it. It will be like the academic replication crisis, but for normies.

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