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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #59

1000 replies

nauticant · 12/12/2025 19:37

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

Following handing down of the judgment on 8 December 2025, on 11 December 2025, it was announced by Sandie Peggie and her legal team that they would be pursuing an appeal.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025
Thread 58: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5458443-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-58 11 December 2025 to 12 December 2025

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62
MyAmpleSheep · 15/12/2025 12:10

BrokenSunflowers · 15/12/2025 11:18

Very unlikely to be Maya’s judge despite the fact he now sits on the EAT as he is not Scottish. The legal system is separate in Scotland and England.

“Maya’s Judge” was Chaudhury P, the P indicating he was the President of the court, the most senior judge. Only the most significant cases get onto the President’s list.

I’m not sure if he still sits on the EAT but he’s still a High Court Judge, styled Mr Justice Chaudhury. The incumbent president is Lord Fairley, who is (coincidentally) a Scottish Judge. He is Senator of the College of Justice, which I think makes him equivalent to a High Court Judge in England and Wales.

My money is on this appeal being listed for him, as it’s clearly an area of law of importance and interest to the public.

In terms of whether he will or won’t agree with Forstater: he will. Remember that in FWS five justices of the Supreme Court including its President praised Chaudhury P’s judgement as “comprehensive and impressive”. Nobody is going to rule against that, not the Court of Appeal or the EAT one level down. Forstater has effectively already had its appeal all the way to the SC, on the coat tails of FWS, and for free.

ArabellaSaurus · 15/12/2025 12:13

IHaveSomeUnpopularOpinions · 15/12/2025 11:50

https://www.scottishlegal.com/articles/should-judge-alexander-kemp-be-investigated-over-peggie-judgment

survey (targetting lawyers, but open to all - it's a google form, with a not-shared id, a boolean yes/no should he be investigated, and the option to leave a "civil" comment) and a little discussion about what could happen, including:

"So far, the Judicial Office, a branch of the UK civil service which supports non-devolved tribunals across the UK and whose task it is to “maintain confidence in the rule of law” (not to be confused with the Judicial Office for Scotland), has issued one certificate of correction to address the “clerical error”. It is not clear whether another such certificate will be issued to deal with the subsequent “clerical errors” found after the first was issued. "

"Complaints about judicial decisions do not come within the scope of the complaints policy, yet it is not clear how the novel allegation that AI may have been used in the preparation of a judgment fits into the policy – making this case a test of its scope."

Edited

Whether or not AI was used isn't really the pressing issue, is it?

The fact of the matter is that the Judge has fundamentally misunderstood the SC judgment, misquoted and wrongly named parties, and overall undermined public faith in the judiciary and process.

WearyAuldWumman · 15/12/2025 12:19

Majorconcern · 15/12/2025 11:59

I've just participated in that survey and left a comment - it didn't seem to matter who I am!

Thank you for the link. I have just made my response to the survey.

I may draft an email to complain later.

MyAmpleSheep · 15/12/2025 12:24

MyAmpleSheep · 15/12/2025 12:10

“Maya’s Judge” was Chaudhury P, the P indicating he was the President of the court, the most senior judge. Only the most significant cases get onto the President’s list.

I’m not sure if he still sits on the EAT but he’s still a High Court Judge, styled Mr Justice Chaudhury. The incumbent president is Lord Fairley, who is (coincidentally) a Scottish Judge. He is Senator of the College of Justice, which I think makes him equivalent to a High Court Judge in England and Wales.

My money is on this appeal being listed for him, as it’s clearly an area of law of importance and interest to the public.

In terms of whether he will or won’t agree with Forstater: he will. Remember that in FWS five justices of the Supreme Court including its President praised Chaudhury P’s judgement as “comprehensive and impressive”. Nobody is going to rule against that, not the Court of Appeal or the EAT one level down. Forstater has effectively already had its appeal all the way to the SC, on the coat tails of FWS, and for free.

Sorry - I thought the PP meant the Judge who ruled in favour of MF in the EAT. The ET judge who was overruled was Judge Tayler. He is now a Senior Circuit Judge of the EAT based in London, styled His Honour Judge Tayler (which makes him fairly junior in the greater scheme.) He won’t hear the appeal as he’s London-based.

Majorconcern · 15/12/2025 12:31

MyAmpleSheep · 15/12/2025 12:24

Sorry - I thought the PP meant the Judge who ruled in favour of MF in the EAT. The ET judge who was overruled was Judge Tayler. He is now a Senior Circuit Judge of the EAT based in London, styled His Honour Judge Tayler (which makes him fairly junior in the greater scheme.) He won’t hear the appeal as he’s London-based.

Edited

Presumably Lord Fairley will be thinking not only that the case is one of massive public interest, but also that this appeal is to a great extent about public confidence in the ET system - and he's got a big stake in that as President

NebulousSupportPostcard · 15/12/2025 12:33

BettyBooper · 15/12/2025 12:07

Well, yes.

It is surely in the public interest to have this information. The fact the we still don't know stinks, IMHO.

It's probably possible to infer more about their identities by jigsaw id from publicly available info but I feel very nervous about the possibility of a mistaken identity issue causing huge problems for any given individual and for mumsnet.

I'm really hoping that the legal team are in a position to make enquiries and do due dilligence, and properly alert the Judiciary office to any conflicts of interest that may become apparent. After their stirling work in this respect in Belfast, it seems very likely that they will already be on the case.

GallantKumquat · 15/12/2025 12:35

ArabellaSaurus · 15/12/2025 12:13

Whether or not AI was used isn't really the pressing issue, is it?

The fact of the matter is that the Judge has fundamentally misunderstood the SC judgment, misquoted and wrongly named parties, and overall undermined public faith in the judiciary and process.

I would argue that it's a separate issue, and indirect in this case. I don't think there's anything about the appeal of the case that couldn't be argued from the perspective of competence of judgement - that's certainly the opinions of many who I'm seeing.

But the fact of the matter is that neither legal code, nor the process of finding fact are deterministic or contradiction free - so, it's entirely possible that well directed AI could now, or will be able to in the near future, find clever ways to argue for practically any preconceived verdict for practically any case. This goes doubly for civil law, where there is more scope for ambiguity and judicial pragmatism. All these things are exacerbated by the fact that there is already a concerted ideologically motivated push to inject training material into AI to direct legal reasoning, say through Wikipedia.

That means that it must, in the strongest terms, be made clear that it's unethical to use AI to reason backwards from wanted judgements, and there must be severe penalties imposed on judges or paralegals working for them, who misuse AI in that way. This case shows that the UK legal system is well past the crisis stage in this respect as there seems to be no convincing answers as to whether this happened, and if not, how do we know?

ProfessorIDareSay · 15/12/2025 12:36

From Prof. Alice Sullivan:

"I have written to the Judicial Office for Scotland in relation to errors in the interpretation of evidence in the Sandie Peggie case.

To: Judicial Office for Scotland [email protected]

Dear Sir/Madam,

I write in relation to the Judgment in the case of Peggie vs Fife Health Board and Upton.

While some of these points have already been discussed in the public domain, the judgment suggests a preference for a ‘skilled witness’ regarding research evidence. As a professor of sociology at UCL with many years of experience in the field of social statistics, I trust that I meet the criteria to be considered as a skilled witness.

Paragraph 1047 suggests some confusion on the part of Judge Kemp regarding the following publication: Dhejne, C., Lichtenstein, P., Boman, M., Johansson, A.L., Långström, N. and Landén, M., 2011. Long-term follow-up of transsexual persons undergoing sex reassignment surgery: cohort study in Sweden. PloS one, 6(2), p.e16885.
The judgment notes: ‘The following was stated “Transsexual individuals were at increased risk of being convicted for any crime or violent crime after sex reassignment (Table 2); this, however was only significant in the group who underwent sex reassignment before 1989.” ‘

However, this is sentence is irrelevant to the point at hand. The judge appears to have either misinterpreted the evidence or missed the point.

The paper states ‘regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6;95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males’. In other words, the paper finds that ‘male-to-females’ retained a male pattern of criminal convictions.

The judge’s misinterpretation of Dhjene et al, combined with his dismissal of Ministry of Justice data on the grounds that clicking on hyperlinks would have been required to gain access to the relevant documents, underpinned his conclusion in paragraph 1049 ‘In our view, having read all of the documents, there is very far from sufficient reliable evidence to establish as a fact that a trans woman who is legally and biologically male is a greater risk to any person assigned female at birth within a changing room environment at a workplace than another woman assigned female at birth’.

This conclusion is based in error. In addition, it misunderstands the burden of proof. It is well-established that males are far more likely to commit violent and sexual crime than females. In order to argue that this does not apply to a subset of males, one would need strong positive evidence of this point.

I would add some further evidence. The most recent data from His Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service (HMPPS, 2025) further supports the view that males who identify as transwomen retain a male pattern of offending. Only around 4% of the prison population in England and Wales is female. The transgender prison population in 2025 (0.4% of prisoners) included over four times as many biological males (276) as females (63). If transwomen were counted as women, they would constitute 7.3% of women prisoners.

I hope this is helpful.

Yours faithfully,

Professor Alice Sullivan, UCL"

https://x.com/ProfAliceS/status/2000532626243756399?s=20

Professor Alice Sullivan (@ProfAliceS) on X

I have written to the Judicial Office for Scotland in relation to errors in the interpretation of evidence in the Sandie Peggie case. To: Judicial Office for Scotland [email protected] Dear Sir/Madam, I write in relation to the Ju...

https://x.com/ProfAliceS/status/2000532626243756399?s=20

ArabellaSaurus · 15/12/2025 12:39

' If transwomen were counted as women, they would constitute 7.3% of women prisoners.'

We know that they ARE counted as women in many instances.

Which means we can expect the data on sex of criminal perpetrators to be fucked.

Majorconcern · 15/12/2025 12:39

I'm starting to feel really sorry for the Judicial Office people. It's nearly Christmas and every day they are faced with another tangle. Love Prof Sullivan's letter - succinct but devastating

Majorconcern · 15/12/2025 12:40

Would the judgment in Peggie v Fife now be considered NWORIADS?

NebulousSupportPostcard · 15/12/2025 12:56

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 15/12/2025 12:01

This is where the next line of enquiry needs to go

I think you know I believe that transparency on this is extremely important and likely to be significant.

In principle though, I think it's right that the Judge is ultimately held responsible.

The recruitment and vetting processes for non legally qualified panel members appears to be very rigorous and I hope they follow up on any potential biases or eg political conflicts of interest.

But the training of lay panel members doesn't seem to be extensive, and the expertise they bring is very varied. I can imagine it could go either way with panel members influencing or being influenced by the others. But the Judge is the one who is expert on the law and is individually responsible for the Judgment.

BrokenSunflowers · 15/12/2025 13:00

prh47bridge · 15/12/2025 12:01

The study with the tables was provided as evidence. The tribunal used the table comparing offending rates of trans identifying men with men to argue that TIMs are no more a threat than women, ignoring the table that shows TIMs are far more likely to commit violent offences than women. This was either a failure to read and understand the evidence or a deliberate distortion of the evidence.

Given all the ‘errors’ flow in the same direction, it feels purposeful.

MarieDeGournay · 15/12/2025 13:04

Majorconcern · 15/12/2025 12:31

Presumably Lord Fairley will be thinking not only that the case is one of massive public interest, but also that this appeal is to a great extent about public confidence in the ET system - and he's got a big stake in that as President

'Judge Fairley' - is that a name, or an exhortation?

BrokenSunflowers · 15/12/2025 13:06

ArabellaSaurus · 15/12/2025 12:13

Whether or not AI was used isn't really the pressing issue, is it?

The fact of the matter is that the Judge has fundamentally misunderstood the SC judgment, misquoted and wrongly named parties, and overall undermined public faith in the judiciary and process.

Getting the SC judgement wrong is a matter for appeal. It seems obvious but dealing with errors in law is what the appeal is for.

Made up quotes, editing quotes to misrepresent what was said and misrepresenting evidence seems to be to be a different matter - one that requires disciplinary intervention.

EmmyFr · 15/12/2025 13:13
disney money GIF

Anybody have a share token for the latest Times articles by any chance? By Iain Macwhirter and Jeremy Watson

MyAmpleSheep · 15/12/2025 13:15

MarieDeGournay · 15/12/2025 13:04

'Judge Fairley' - is that a name, or an exhortation?

We had a Lord Judge, and Lord Justice Laws, so it's another example of nominative determinism.

BrokenSunflowers · 15/12/2025 13:38

It mustn’t be forgotten that the judiciary has also been subject to ‘training’ by TRA groups.

prh47bridge · 15/12/2025 13:39

EmmyFr · 15/12/2025 13:13

Anybody have a share token for the latest Times articles by any chance? By Iain Macwhirter and Jeremy Watson

You can see the archived version at JK Rowling: Sandie Peggie judge is absolutely scandalous if this is the article you are after.

KitWyn · 15/12/2025 13:43

NebulousSupportPostcard · 15/12/2025 12:33

It's probably possible to infer more about their identities by jigsaw id from publicly available info but I feel very nervous about the possibility of a mistaken identity issue causing huge problems for any given individual and for mumsnet.

I'm really hoping that the legal team are in a position to make enquiries and do due dilligence, and properly alert the Judiciary office to any conflicts of interest that may become apparent. After their stirling work in this respect in Belfast, it seems very likely that they will already be on the case.

Agreed. Judge Kemp is primarily responsible and is now rightly being widely publicly criticised & ridiculed. But the two Lay Panel Members cannot be allowed to escape being both investigated, and then censured, if appropriate.

'C Russell' & 'L Brown' are reportedly middle-aged women. They'd be expected to bring much greater understanding of female needs in changing rooms & toilets. Such as menstruation, menopause, fear of being vulnerable to males in a closed room without windows and so on.

It's very plausible that one or both could consider themselves to be a trans rights ally. And they may be responsible for some of the AI-esque phantom additions to the judgement. If true, they should have recused themselves from this tribunal, and are guilty of bias and serious incompetence in their actions.

Their contributions to this Fustercluck of a Tribunal MUST also be robustly scrutinised, alongside the actions of Sandy Kemp.

SternlyMatthews · 15/12/2025 13:45

EmmyFr · 15/12/2025 13:13

Anybody have a share token for the latest Times articles by any chance? By Iain Macwhirter and Jeremy Watson

found on twix, where I searched his name.
struggling posting the link though, it just disapears
https://www.thetimes.com/article/a4c99045-5e91-4bde-87dd-ba0f39838ec0?shareToken=fc8a1e3c95de45ceb8b8bc8fd107aa55]

RNApolymerase · 15/12/2025 13:57

QuetzalTerfLus · 15/12/2025 12:10

Are “we” (this board) being deliberately kept out of Trending? I noticed that this thread wasn’t in Trending so did a very brief analysis of the timing of the last 10 posts here compared to a random middle of the list post on Trending. This has more recent posts. I am not sure how it’s calculated and maybe I have it wrong - I hope so. Or maybe i missed news of a Trending ban?

Sometimes this board appears to be hidden. However previous of these threads have made it in. Sorry that wasn't a helpful answer - "Maybe".

BrokenSunflowers · 15/12/2025 14:00

Lay members should be public - we should know who is passing judgement. But then again, we should also know if MSPs turn up to work and what they use their ministerial cars for..

Llamasarellovely · 15/12/2025 14:04

MyAmpleSheep · 15/12/2025 13:15

We had a Lord Judge, and Lord Justice Laws, so it's another example of nominative determinism.

We also had a Master McCloud Grin

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