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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #59

1000 replies

nauticant · 12/12/2025 19:37

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

Following handing down of the judgment on 8 December 2025, on 11 December 2025, it was announced by Sandie Peggie and her legal team that they would be pursuing an appeal.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025
Thread 58: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5458443-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-58 11 December 2025 to 12 December 2025

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Largesso · 15/12/2025 08:09

prh47bridge · 15/12/2025 00:01

The EAT has to accept the tribunal's findings of fact. It also has to accept the tribunal's assessment of the credibility of the witnesses. But, with so many basic errors in it, do we really think the tribunal's judgement can be trusted on those things? And if it can't, the EAT cannot use those findings of fact, etc., to determine the outcome of the case. The only way out of that is to send the case back to be heard by a different tribunal.

Thanks @prh47bridge.

That does makes sense. I think I’m playing devil’s advocate because I think there might be an inclination in the judiciary to circle the wagons so to speak and if they can find a way to avoid questioning the findings of fact they will. I suppose, as you said earlier, it will depend if BC and NC’s pleadings give them room for that or not and that, I expect, will depend on what BCs and NCs preferred outcome is.

Later on you post that a rehearing would not be as messy and a better judge might have better hand on the reins and so they might want to go that route and it was quite clear to those of us reading TT and from those reporting from that Kemp handled Upton’s with a care that we worried was bias. At the time we thought he might just be making an effort to be seen to be scrupulous fair but now we have seen the judgment we can totally bin that.

But I also wonder if NC and BC might consider that a huge risk given how many judges seem to be captured.

That being said, risk seems to be the name of the game here because the ambition, in my view, is to create precedent that prevents individuals having to go through what SP has been put through which is why SP is a total shero.

But I am currently very cynical about the judiciary given Kemp’s sense of his own authority and think they will close ranks.

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 15/12/2025 08:10

weegielass · 15/12/2025 07:53

I know someone who has been a lay member on the EAT for nearly 30 years and is a TU official. I have yet to see this person on an EAT to do with gender critical beliefs but would be seriously alarmed if they were as they have indicated they believe we are all nasty transphobes. I say 'they' to be non outing (not because of how they identify)

Yes - this is the problem. Gender critics are transphobes is ok to say in polite society. No one would call them on their bias.

We should.

Binglebong · 15/12/2025 08:11

BettyBooper · 15/12/2025 01:06

If you're talking about the Sara Morrison case (which was utterly barking) it's this one. Sorry link to thread 2 but I'm sure you'll work it out...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5444170-sara-morrison-vs-belfast-film-festival-thread-2

Thank you!

EweProfessorSurnameDoctorProfessor · 15/12/2025 08:16

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 15/12/2025 08:09

Yes it’s a do over

Would it therefor not set precedent in the same way that it would if it was appealed?

borntobequiet · 15/12/2025 08:18

I remember saying some time ago on one of these threads that if Sandie were to win, it would be a disaster for the genderists, and if she lost, it would equally be a disaster for them because so many people would be angry about it. So it being a bit of both is sort of a double whammy for them.

KTheGrey · 15/12/2025 08:21

NebulousSupportPostcard · 14/12/2025 22:15

Hard agree that it's horrifically unjust for both parties at this stage.

They'd probably need a CLO for the Employment Tribunals Scotland to indemnify - but imagine the uproar if all the insurance costs were hiked exponentially because of one stupid judgment in Dundee! They'd all end up bringing lawsuits against each other in a spectacular way and then Netflix would jump in with another "This is based on a TRUE STORY" series, and Scotland would have to be closed down for a while until the storm passed over.

Scottish public institutions might benefit from a hard switching off and switching back on again - plus the Netflix deals? I think you may have unlocked a solution.

AreYouSureAskedNaomi · 15/12/2025 08:23

If the case had to be reheard, would either party be allowed to change anything?

For example, NC wanted to include Dr Searle as a respondent. Would that be possible?

Could Fife use the "unacceptable manifestation of beliefs" defense?

Is it okay to refer to the previous hearing? For example "previously you said that..." or does everyone have to pretend the previous hearing never happened?

Thank you all

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 15/12/2025 08:23

Wouldn't a complete rehearing mean that the current win for Sandie re NHSF harassment might reach a different conclusion? I mean it seems difficult to imagine a different outcome re that awful process but is it a possibility?

Whereas with an appeal on the other claims, that one would be "banked" so to speak?

BezMills · 15/12/2025 08:39

Fifer : "noo ah'm nae law craw, bit see thon judgement? If it wis an auld sofa, ah'd be black affrontit tae even leave it oot fir the cooncil."

KnottyAuty · 15/12/2025 09:01

prh47bridge · 15/12/2025 00:01

The EAT has to accept the tribunal's findings of fact. It also has to accept the tribunal's assessment of the credibility of the witnesses. But, with so many basic errors in it, do we really think the tribunal's judgement can be trusted on those things? And if it can't, the EAT cannot use those findings of fact, etc., to determine the outcome of the case. The only way out of that is to send the case back to be heard by a different tribunal.

Does it help (avoid going back to ET) that there’s a full transcript?

Kemp might have decided that Upton was credible but those watching (or who can read the transcript) might think otherwise after the “I am not a robot. I am a biological woman” and the highly irregular phone evidence debacle…

Im not sure the average person would find any of that credible

Surely with all that on record, some wriggle room can be found at EAT?

TriesNotToBeCynical · 15/12/2025 09:09

If the remedy hearing and any claim for costs go ahead in front of Judge Kemp isn't that going to be a little embarrassing?

123ZYX · 15/12/2025 09:12

Is it possible for an EAT to give a decision on the law around the use of single sex spaces in workplaces, then return the ET for it to be reheard with the law clarified, or is the EAT only able to do one or the other?

prh47bridge · 15/12/2025 09:13

MyAmpleSheep · 15/12/2025 01:14

I realize that’s the criterion but was curious as to your assessment.

if you were NHSFife would you be happy?

Plus, she’s a silk now, so much more expensive. (Although, I don’t get the idea NHSFife cares much for economy).

Edited

I wouldn't, but I wouldn't have used her in the first place. I'm not captured. NHS Fife are, so they may well think she's been brilliant. If I were NHS Fife, I would probably feel glad that she managed to win on most points and annoyed that the tribunal messed up the judgement. I may well feel that all we need is to do it again with a tribunal that will make the same decision but won't mess up the judgement.

prh47bridge · 15/12/2025 09:15

EweProfessorSurnameDoctorProfessor · 15/12/2025 04:17

I know you said previously that if it was appealed, they couldn’t challenge finding of facts eg that Upton was a credible witness, Peggie was found to have referred to Bryson in prison etc.

If it’s re-heard, would everything once again be up for grabs to be determined?

Yes, a fresh tribunal would be starting from scratch. They would not be bound by any of the previous tribunal's findings. They could make different findings of fact and different findings as to the credibility of the witnesses.

Tiddler1976 · 15/12/2025 09:17

How on earth do you get to ensure that the experience of going through this in the first instance doesn't change the approach of the witnesses who now know what they might be getting picked up on? Is reference allowed to be made to the previous evidence given to ensure consistency? For example, I don't think Bumba will say she doesn't know if she's a woman again! And the Doctor will be perfectly aware of the falsified evidence, etc.

Apologies, but from a bias, or reflexive perspective, surely there's a potential that this isn't as true a reflection of what happened? Or maybe it will allow for a more thorough focus on the issues that need to be addressed?

I'm havering! But, trying to understand how this remains 'true' to the fairness of the process having had half a verdict already.

prh47bridge · 15/12/2025 09:19

EweProfessorSurnameDoctorProfessor · 15/12/2025 08:16

Would it therefor not set precedent in the same way that it would if it was appealed?

No, it would not set a binding precedent. However, if the EAT rules on the law as well as sending it back to the ET, that would set a binding precedent.

GallantKumquat · 15/12/2025 09:21

borntobequiet · 15/12/2025 08:18

I remember saying some time ago on one of these threads that if Sandie were to win, it would be a disaster for the genderists, and if she lost, it would equally be a disaster for them because so many people would be angry about it. So it being a bit of both is sort of a double whammy for them.

If Peggie had lost on all points it would have been a difficult time the GC cause because there would have been a full court press to undo FWS 'in effect', and it's clear that a number of actors were primed and waiting in the wings for just such a ruling - look at how successfully TRAs are spinning the problematic judgement with a partial win.

The problem with this judgement is that if it's sent back for a retrial (without an EAT finding of law) it might still not become precedent.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/12/2025 09:26

Tiddler1976 · 15/12/2025 09:17

How on earth do you get to ensure that the experience of going through this in the first instance doesn't change the approach of the witnesses who now know what they might be getting picked up on? Is reference allowed to be made to the previous evidence given to ensure consistency? For example, I don't think Bumba will say she doesn't know if she's a woman again! And the Doctor will be perfectly aware of the falsified evidence, etc.

Apologies, but from a bias, or reflexive perspective, surely there's a potential that this isn't as true a reflection of what happened? Or maybe it will allow for a more thorough focus on the issues that need to be addressed?

I'm havering! But, trying to understand how this remains 'true' to the fairness of the process having had half a verdict already.

Edited

This is a really interesting point, what is your view @prh47bridge and other legal eagles on the thread?

prh47bridge · 15/12/2025 09:26

AreYouSureAskedNaomi · 15/12/2025 08:23

If the case had to be reheard, would either party be allowed to change anything?

For example, NC wanted to include Dr Searle as a respondent. Would that be possible?

Could Fife use the "unacceptable manifestation of beliefs" defense?

Is it okay to refer to the previous hearing? For example "previously you said that..." or does everyone have to pretend the previous hearing never happened?

Thank you all

Both sides can change their arguments if they wish. They don't have to rerun the case exactly as it happened last time around.

NC would have to apply to include Dr Searle as a respondent. It would be up to the courts to decide whether this would be allowed.

Fife could use the unacceptable manifestation defence.

Given that there is a transcript, I believe it will be possible to challenge witnesses if their evidence at the rehearing contradicts their earlier evidence.

prh47bridge · 15/12/2025 09:27

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 15/12/2025 08:23

Wouldn't a complete rehearing mean that the current win for Sandie re NHSF harassment might reach a different conclusion? I mean it seems difficult to imagine a different outcome re that awful process but is it a possibility?

Whereas with an appeal on the other claims, that one would be "banked" so to speak?

Yes, it would unless the EAT decided to only send back the counts where the ET decided against Sandie. They could, in theory, decide that the decision on harassment is sound but send the rest back.

prh47bridge · 15/12/2025 09:29

KnottyAuty · 15/12/2025 09:01

Does it help (avoid going back to ET) that there’s a full transcript?

Kemp might have decided that Upton was credible but those watching (or who can read the transcript) might think otherwise after the “I am not a robot. I am a biological woman” and the highly irregular phone evidence debacle…

Im not sure the average person would find any of that credible

Surely with all that on record, some wriggle room can be found at EAT?

No. The EAT is supposed to use the transcript to make its own decision on the credibility of witnesses. That decision should be made by a court that has heard from the witnesses in person.

prh47bridge · 15/12/2025 09:32

123ZYX · 15/12/2025 09:12

Is it possible for an EAT to give a decision on the law around the use of single sex spaces in workplaces, then return the ET for it to be reheard with the law clarified, or is the EAT only able to do one or the other?

Yes, I believe the EAT could clarify the law then send the case back to be heard by a different tribunal.

prh47bridge · 15/12/2025 09:35

Tiddler1976 · 15/12/2025 09:17

How on earth do you get to ensure that the experience of going through this in the first instance doesn't change the approach of the witnesses who now know what they might be getting picked up on? Is reference allowed to be made to the previous evidence given to ensure consistency? For example, I don't think Bumba will say she doesn't know if she's a woman again! And the Doctor will be perfectly aware of the falsified evidence, etc.

Apologies, but from a bias, or reflexive perspective, surely there's a potential that this isn't as true a reflection of what happened? Or maybe it will allow for a more thorough focus on the issues that need to be addressed?

I'm havering! But, trying to understand how this remains 'true' to the fairness of the process having had half a verdict already.

Edited

You can't, but, given the existence of the transcript, it should be possible to challenge witnesses if their evidence changes. So if Bumba now knows her sex, SP's team could point out that she didn't know last time around and ask what has changed.

ArabellaSaurus · 15/12/2025 09:35

prh47bridge · 15/12/2025 09:32

Yes, I believe the EAT could clarify the law then send the case back to be heard by a different tribunal.

Sounds good.

Then again, the EAT judge has made appalling decisions in the past (namely Forstater's beliefs not being WORIADS).

So...

prh47bridge · 15/12/2025 09:35

prh47bridge · 15/12/2025 09:29

No. The EAT is supposed to use the transcript to make its own decision on the credibility of witnesses. That decision should be made by a court that has heard from the witnesses in person.

Sorry - missed a vital word there. The EAT is NOT supposed to use the transcript to make its own decision on the credibility of witnesses.

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