Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #58

1000 replies

nauticant · 11/12/2025 13:09

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
58
Coffeebeforework · 11/12/2025 16:37

ArabellaSaurus · 11/12/2025 15:37

Yep. She was just trying to do her job, while dealing with all the usual shite that women have to deal with - menopausal struggles, family illness, plus the stress of frontline work, and her employer has to spaff our tax money on paying idiots like Isla 'don't know if I'm a woman' Bumba to give a fanny like the supercilious Dr Upton carte blanche to hang out in her changing room, then offer him every benefit of the doubt when his obviously upsetting presence causes yet more stress for a woman. He made up bullshit to try and get her sacked. He mocked all women with his 'big girl panties' schtick. He loved trotting out his bullshit philosophy tube nonsense to an eager audience, and that wee nyaff of a judge lapped it all up and thought that nice Dr Upton who went to a nice school, a good uni, and has a good family must be the good guy here. Sandie - just a disposable wee wumman of no consequence. Not even worthy of writing a clear judgement, instead he just cobbles together an incoherent character assassination in lieu of an actual judgement.

Potter retires in the nick of time. NHS Fife admit at last that Peggie was right all along, now that the big bloke at the Supreme Court put his foot down.

Because they won't listen to women, especially not women who aren't the right nice good type of women. Because THOSE women don't deserve rights, and those rights are bigoted to even want anyway, so any woman who asks for them reveals herself to be not worthy by the act of asking. (If she sinks, she's innocent.)

Shame on the lot of them.

Ooh haven't heard the word nyaff in such a long time but is a perfect description! Am so sorry that Sandie continues to be put through the mill in this ridiculous situation. There isn't enough popcorn in the world to watch (and enjoy) Ben Cooper in action in the next stage of proceedings.😁 Condolences to @nauticant.

Boiledbeetle · 11/12/2025 16:38

Beerlzebub · 11/12/2025 16:36

That's OK Boiled, we're not gerbilphobes on this thread.

The gerbils thank you.

Beerlzebub · 11/12/2025 16:38

ProfessorBinturong · 11/12/2025 16:32

point of law that hasn't been argued before, or a matter of real significance to the whole of the UK

It should be able to meet those tests, if necessary, surely?

That's not relevant for the ET appeal (Sandie's next step), that's for further up the line, if the appeal judgement gets appealed.

Harassedevictee · 11/12/2025 16:40

I live in hope of manifesting a lottery win but I will take manifesting Ben to help with Sandies appeal as a huge win.

I posted in the previous thread I admire NC but Ben’s ability to break it down may be what is needed.

I feel for Sandie and her family as this is dragging it out. The support she has received from Maya, Margaret, Naomi, Women Won’t Wheest, Sex Matters etc. is invaluable for getting her through this.

prh47bridge · 11/12/2025 16:40

ProfessorBinturong · 11/12/2025 16:32

point of law that hasn't been argued before, or a matter of real significance to the whole of the UK

It should be able to meet those tests, if necessary, surely?

The Supreme Court will certainly take the case if they think that the lower courts are defying their judgement in FWS. However, it has to make its way through the lower courts first. Hopefully it won't need to go any further than the EAT.

Beerlzebub · 11/12/2025 16:41

Harassedevictee · 11/12/2025 16:40

I live in hope of manifesting a lottery win but I will take manifesting Ben to help with Sandies appeal as a huge win.

I posted in the previous thread I admire NC but Ben’s ability to break it down may be what is needed.

I feel for Sandie and her family as this is dragging it out. The support she has received from Maya, Margaret, Naomi, Women Won’t Wheest, Sex Matters etc. is invaluable for getting her through this.

It's not only good that he's taking the case on. He wouldn't be attaching himself to a case that he didn't think was very strong.

ThatCyanCat · 11/12/2025 16:42

ickky · 11/12/2025 16:31

I love Naomi but Ben was my first love.

It is fanbloodytastic that they are doing the appeal together.

I am utterly delighted. 😁

Oh my God, really??

Chris Hemsworth, I'm sorry, honey, but you're dumped. Ben and Naomi together? I can never love another. If anyone needs me, I'll be in my bunk.

ProfLargofesse · 11/12/2025 16:42

SirEctor · 11/12/2025 16:24

Naomi's going to be on it too, though, right? I thought I heard that BC was joining the team in addition to NC, not replacing her?

If I'm right then it's going to be the absolute dream team. Have they worked directly together before, does anyone remember?

I think it is a clever strategic move because Kemp is a misogynist.

MyAmpleSheep · 11/12/2025 16:43

ProfessorBinturong · 11/12/2025 16:32

point of law that hasn't been argued before, or a matter of real significance to the whole of the UK

It should be able to meet those tests, if necessary, surely?

In my opinion (worth what you paid for it), yes, absolutely. Just look at FWS. If your point is that this could take the best part of a decade to get to a final outcome, you're correct. And then throw in the vague chance of something coming up in the European Court of Human Rights.

For my part, I'm investing in popcorn futures. But shhh.... you didn't hear that from me.

Edited to say - of course, NHS Fife has to want to appeal it all the way to the SC, for that to happen. FWS was against the Scottish Government, who had a political purpose in pursuing the appeals they did (nothing illegitimate about that, but it provides long term motivation.) NHS Fife is in the business of healing the sick, not politics, so the board might not feel it was within the purpose of the NHS to win for the trans community. NHS FIfe can afford to lose. DU can't - but he probably doesn't have the money to fund a legal team for any appeals on his own.

CapabilityBrownsHaHa · 11/12/2025 16:43

I think I need some kind of chart or diagram of courts and jurisdictions (E&W, Scotland and UK) to show which creates precedent and where... Wonder if chatGPT could make one! 🤣🤣

prh47bridge · 11/12/2025 16:43

SirEctor · 11/12/2025 16:27

He's a barrister who has won other high profile cases in the field, notably the Forstater case.

https://oldsquare.co.uk/people/ben-cooper-kc/

He also represented Sex Matters in the FWS case in the Supreme Court.

SirEctor · 11/12/2025 16:43

ProfLargofesse · 11/12/2025 16:42

I think it is a clever strategic move because Kemp is a misogynist.

Surely Kemp won't have anything more to do with it, though? It'll be a different judge, won't it?

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 11/12/2025 16:45

Thanks to SP for continuing to fight, she so brave, and deserves a medal. 🥇

Instructions · 11/12/2025 16:45

You'd think this would be a massive sign to the TRAs, really- for a judge to find that what you're up to is just fine and perfectly legal they literally have to make things up and ignore the actual law

Some sad, sad times for that lot in the year ahead

ProfessorBinturong · 11/12/2025 16:46

MarieDeGournay · 11/12/2025 16:30

Is being in love with lawyers a literal gender identity?😄

Tsk. Of course not - it's a sexual orientation: advocartisexual

SqueakyDinosaur · 11/12/2025 16:46

@Harassedevictee I agree we shouldn't discount the strain on Sandie and her family. But the way an EAT is structured (i.e. it's only points of law that can be appealed) would, I hope, make it feel less personal to her. She isn't going to be in the witness box defending 7 year old WhatsApp messages on a private group chat.

I think the difference in style between BCKC and NC will work well. NC has real skin in the game - she's angry, and IMO it shows in her courtroom examinations and submissions. It has always felt to me like BC is a little more detached from the subject and sees it as more a legal issue that needs sorting out for the sake of order, rather than a moral or justice-based one.

Also, his role in the FWS SC judgment, where his submissions were singled out for thanks by the judges, can only be helpful.

Majorconcern · 11/12/2025 16:47

SqueakyDinosaur · 11/12/2025 16:46

@Harassedevictee I agree we shouldn't discount the strain on Sandie and her family. But the way an EAT is structured (i.e. it's only points of law that can be appealed) would, I hope, make it feel less personal to her. She isn't going to be in the witness box defending 7 year old WhatsApp messages on a private group chat.

I think the difference in style between BCKC and NC will work well. NC has real skin in the game - she's angry, and IMO it shows in her courtroom examinations and submissions. It has always felt to me like BC is a little more detached from the subject and sees it as more a legal issue that needs sorting out for the sake of order, rather than a moral or justice-based one.

Also, his role in the FWS SC judgment, where his submissions were singled out for thanks by the judges, can only be helpful.

Edited

Also, seniority gives the confidence to take the court on firmly but politely. We can't have this case buffetted about off the rails again

prh47bridge · 11/12/2025 16:48

To add, I agree with some others that this correction is itself an error and should not have happened. In my view it goes beyond what is allowed by the slip rule and gives further ammunition to the appeal.

Majorconcern · 11/12/2025 16:51

prh47bridge · 11/12/2025 16:48

To add, I agree with some others that this correction is itself an error and should not have happened. In my view it goes beyond what is allowed by the slip rule and gives further ammunition to the appeal.

The Telegraph article mentions a Judicial Office spokeswoman who said judges speak through their a*s (sorry) judgments and there would be no further comment. I think if she's hiding now she should be found!

ProfessorBinturong · 11/12/2025 16:51

ProfLargofesse · 11/12/2025 16:42

I think it is a clever strategic move because Kemp is a misogynist.

Kemp won't be hearing the appeal.

lcakethereforeIam · 11/12/2025 16:53

This quote

Asked for an explanation, a Judicial Office spokeswoman said that judges speak through their judgments and no comment would be provided on individual cases.

From the Telegraph article. Some judges, mentioning no names, also speak through their arses.

Manro · 11/12/2025 16:53

I'm really sorry, I dip in and out of these threads and am feeling a bit lost here.

I take it that NC wasn't given the judgement in advance, and now that she has had time to look through it has spotted some inaccuracies in what the judge has said, is that right? Is it to the level that people outside of us are taking notice?

If anyone could give a couple of line summary I would be incredibly grateful.

Edited to add - also BC is getting involved?!?! Excellent!

ProfLargofesse · 11/12/2025 16:53

SirEctor · 11/12/2025 16:43

Surely Kemp won't have anything more to do with it, though? It'll be a different judge, won't it?

IANAL but it looks to me from this that if they had gone for RECONSIDERATION it would be Kemp doing it but they have gone straight for APPEAL which goes to EAT not ET so won't be Kemp. If I've understood correctly:

www.judiciary.uk/courts-and-tribunals/tribunals/employment-tribunal/employment-tribunal-scotland/after-the-hearing/

MyAmpleSheep · 11/12/2025 16:53

CapabilityBrownsHaHa · 11/12/2025 16:43

I think I need some kind of chart or diagram of courts and jurisdictions (E&W, Scotland and UK) to show which creates precedent and where... Wonder if chatGPT could make one! 🤣🤣

This works for England and Wales (not Scotland, where this case is, obviously)
https://www.justcite.com/kb/editorial-policies/terms/uk-court-structure/

ickky · 11/12/2025 16:54

The collateral damage of this case just keeps building.

The reputational damage to NHS Fife.

The CEO taking "early retirement".

The Judge that is being widely mocked.

How many more WTF moments are coming?

If they ever do make a mini series of all these Tribunals, people will think it has been exaggerated for sensationalist artistic purposes.

You couldn't make it up.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread