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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #58

1000 replies

nauticant · 11/12/2025 13:09

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
58
Totallygripped · 12/12/2025 18:42

nauticant · 12/12/2025 17:57

This tweet, relevant to your comment, came to my attention via Nick Wallis:

https://x.com/catkaldir/status/1999036775331959041

So that took me to cannibalising pelvic bones tho I think in the US. As I understand it the use of cadavers in the UK is strictly regulated by the Tissues Authority. Interesting to know how these particular surgeries are dealt with. How many philanthropically donated bodies has Dr Tina Rashid used for her penile inversion/peritoneal pull through run throughs?
This whole nonsense has such wide ratifications.

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 18:45

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/6679093a2ff37863

one for the voter discussion earlier - the Greens have been told that their £200k purge of sex realist party members isn’t legal by their own lawyers.

Green Party tearing itself apart over trans rights, leaked dossier reveals

Lawyers warn guidance on identifying ‘queerphobia’ risks discriminating against members who question gender ideology

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/6679093a2ff37863

Mochudubh · 12/12/2025 18:45

From the tweet @nauticant posted a link to:

im getting experimental pelvis widening in March. Doctor is doing cadaver test runs, and will do his first live patient in February.

I'm pretty sure that's not what people who chose to donate their bodies to science thought they were signing up to.

Cross post with @Totallygripped

Asianbrit · 12/12/2025 18:46

EdithStourton · 12/12/2025 18:20

That is a very astute point.

I’m sorry but to all those trying to justify racist language, she isn’t a neighbour or a child or living in the past. those jokes were offensive and she is a nurse who should have known better. She is a professional who would be treating ethnic minorities when they are in distress and vulnerable and needed compassion (rather like the poor people referenced in those jokes) and she would be working with ethnic minorities who are recruited to prop up the current dysfunctional system. I would like to think she is ashamed of herself and the hurt she would have caused to her ethnic minority colleagues. But please do not minimise it.

Totallygripped · 12/12/2025 18:55

Obvs ramifications. Tho I am losing it...

TheKeatingFive · 12/12/2025 18:58

Asianbrit · 12/12/2025 18:46

I’m sorry but to all those trying to justify racist language, she isn’t a neighbour or a child or living in the past. those jokes were offensive and she is a nurse who should have known better. She is a professional who would be treating ethnic minorities when they are in distress and vulnerable and needed compassion (rather like the poor people referenced in those jokes) and she would be working with ethnic minorities who are recruited to prop up the current dysfunctional system. I would like to think she is ashamed of herself and the hurt she would have caused to her ethnic minority colleagues. But please do not minimise it.

It's entirely irrelevant to the case however.

Kucinghitam · 12/12/2025 19:05

I agree with both @Asianbrit and @TheKeatingFive.

Sandie may be a product of a milieu of racist language and attitudes, with or without an intention to be deliberately racist. But she's clearly a smart woman and after decades working in a public service role, she should have absorbed the knowledge that it was not acceptable in wider society.

BUT.

She still deserves the privacy, dignity and safety of single-sex spaces; freedom from males when in a state of undress isn't a reward for being a naice girl, so her character flaws are irrelevant to the case.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 12/12/2025 19:05

NebulousSadTimes · 12/12/2025 17:41

I think it goes back to that inbuilt thing we have. We know some men can be a danger to us but most men are just going about their business being men. Men in women's clothing, or as I have seen quite a bit of in the last couple of years, men in brightly coloured "Hey, kids, look how fun I am" clothing with their dyed hair, buying the food for the youth club BBQ, ring an alarm bell.

Someone posted on one of the older threads a link to a video with an American woman who made the very valid point, not all coaches are paedophiles but all paedophiles want to be coaches.

Totallygripped · 12/12/2025 19:12

TheKeatingFive · 12/12/2025 18:58

It's entirely irrelevant to the case however.

I wasn't there so I don't know how this individual actually treated her patients and colleagues. But the indications seem to be, same as everyone. Stupid comments/going with the flow momentarily are not clever. But the point remains about what this is actually about.

Asianbrit · 12/12/2025 19:13

TheKeatingFive · 12/12/2025 18:58

It's entirely irrelevant to the case however.

Yes but people trying to minimise it are not doing the argument any favours.

It doesn’t matter whether you are a saint or someone people cross the road to avoid, you still need to be able to access single sex spaces for personal safety or sex based needs.

edited to add saying she was a little bit racist or racist but didn’t mean it, just makes people look like they are blindly following a cause and suspending their critical and ethical facilities. .

NebulousSupportPostcard · 12/12/2025 19:13

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 14:43

No one has started digging. Sure there is plenty to find. I did a cursory look but can’t see appointment announcement to the panel or data from where to start. Anyone have any insight?

I think any digging would need to be done by legal team who presumably have more details than are publicly available. But they may have enough to go on in other directions now the appeal drafting is underway?

TheKeatingFive · 12/12/2025 19:17

Asianbrit · 12/12/2025 19:13

Yes but people trying to minimise it are not doing the argument any favours.

It doesn’t matter whether you are a saint or someone people cross the road to avoid, you still need to be able to access single sex spaces for personal safety or sex based needs.

edited to add saying she was a little bit racist or racist but didn’t mean it, just makes people look like they are blindly following a cause and suspending their critical and ethical facilities. .

Edited

I just don't know why we're talking about it at all.

We don't know Sandi personality. We're not nominating her for human of the year. She could be the worst racist you've ever come across and she'd still be lawfully entitled to single sex spaces to change in.

Artificialhens · 12/12/2025 19:17

S Peggie has worked alongside and worked upon people of every stripe, all her professional life.

If she was bad to black people, someone would have noticed.

Londonmummy66 · 12/12/2025 19:19

EweProfessorSurnameDoctorProfessor · 12/12/2025 18:27

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/5392926/nhs-fife-trans-judgment-bogus-quote/

No further edits to NHS Fife trans row judgment despite new bogus quote claims

Court officials say the Sandie Peggie tribunal ruling will not be amended again as it's claimed artificial intelligence (AI) may have been used.

Could someone post an archive link to this please?

Also re the interlibrary loan suggestions - the BL is still very heavily plagued by its IT problems - to the extent that staff are threatening strike action so is unlikely to be a lender at the moment.

Barristers Ive spoken to this week are all bemused by this judgement although there have been no suggestions that Kemp is captured despite that being very quickly the word about Sutherland.

Majorconcern · 12/12/2025 19:28

No further edits to NHS Fife trans row judgment despite new bogus quote claims
Court officials say the Sandie Peggie tribunal ruling will not be amended again as it's claimed artificial intelligence (AI) may have been used.
By Justin Bowie
December 12 2025, 5:06pm
Share0comment

Sandie Peggie speaking in Dundee. Image: PA.
No further changes will be made to the controversial NHS Fife trans row tribunal ruling even as concerns over new bogus quotes emerge, court officials have confirmed.
The Judicial Office says any new complaints about the judgment will be a matter for appeal, one day after a significant edit to the 300-page document was made.
The Courier revealed on Thursday that the judgment was being amended because a fabricated quote from another tribunal had been included.
The line – supposedly from a separate case brought by gender campaigner Maya Forstater – had to be removed.
Judge Sandy Kemp, who presided over Ms Peggie’s tribunal against NHS Fife, said the blunder was a “clerical” mistake, error, or omission.
Fresh mistake
But a similar row erupted one day later over another quote included in the judgment which appears to be entirely bogus.
Paragraph 793 of the ruling refers to a tribunal between Northern Irishman Gareth Lee and a baking company, sparked after the firm refused to make a cake promoting same-sex marriage.
It reads: “The rights to freedom of thought, conscience and religion, and to freedom of expression, enshrined in articles 9 and 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights, are protected by sections 6 and 13 of the Human Rights Act 1998.
“The rights to respect for private and family life, and to freedom from discrimination, protected by articles 8 and 14, are also engaged. There is no hierarchy of rights; all are to be treated with equal respect.”
However, this wording cannot be found anywhere in the judgment being referred to.
And it’s not the only problem spotted by campaigners.
A campaign group, named Not All Gays, is referred to as Not For Gays on page 301 of the judgment.
Angry activists say this makes it look as if they do not support gay rights.
The group has written to the tribunal requesting a clarification.

The Sandie Peggie judgment was amended. Image: PA.
The Courier put seven key questions to the Judicial Office over the initial error related to Ms Forstater’s case.
We asked how a bogus quote came to be used, where exactly it came from, why this was merely described as a “clerical” error, who was responsible, and when the error was first identified.
The Judicial Office said it was unable to respond to any of this for legal reasons.
That’s due to the principle of judicial independence – to ensure the courts do not interfere with tribunals like Ms Peggie’s against NHS Fife.
Was AI used?
The Courier also asked for clarification over claims around the use of artificial intelligence (AI) in the tribunal ruling.
Campaigners and lawyers have suggested AI may have formed at least some of the judgment, and believe this could explain the entirely bogus quotes.
Ms Forstater, chief executive of gender charity Sex Matters, told The Courier: “It looks like it could be AI.

Sex Matters chief executive Maya Forstater.
“That could be an explanation for it.
“We deserve an explanation.”
Matthew Scott, a barrister, also made a link between the ruling and AI on social media site X.
“AI is very useful when it comes to writing those lengthy judgments which can easily turn out both turgid and error-strewn,” he said.
The courts have even produced guidance for the use of AI in tribunals.
“Judicial office holders are personally responsible for material which is produced in their name,” it reads.
“Judges must always read the underlying documents.
“AI tools may assist, but they cannot replace direct judicial engagement with evidence.”
The ruling for Ms Peggie’s tribunal was first published on Monday.

Dr Beth Upton at the NHS Fife tribunal. Image: Kenny Smith/DC Thomson.
It found that NHS Fife had harassed the Kirkcaldy hospital nurse due to its botched handling of the fallout of the scandal.
The saga first erupted when Ms Peggie confronted trans doctor Beth Upton in a Victoria Hospital changing room on Christmas Eve in 2023.
Ms Peggie’s claims of discrimination, sexual harassment, and victimisation against her employer failed.
All claims against trans medic Dr Upton were rejected.
The judgment favoured Dr Upton’s account of the changing room altercation over Ms Peggie.
On Thursday, the nurse’s lawyers confirmed she intends to appeal the tribunal ruling.
Speaking in Dundee, Ms Peggie said the judgment “falls short”.

Anactor · 12/12/2025 19:29

Asianbrit · 12/12/2025 18:46

I’m sorry but to all those trying to justify racist language, she isn’t a neighbour or a child or living in the past. those jokes were offensive and she is a nurse who should have known better. She is a professional who would be treating ethnic minorities when they are in distress and vulnerable and needed compassion (rather like the poor people referenced in those jokes) and she would be working with ethnic minorities who are recruited to prop up the current dysfunctional system. I would like to think she is ashamed of herself and the hurt she would have caused to her ethnic minority colleagues. But please do not minimise it.

Unfortunately, what you are doing is applying an argument very popular among racists. That is, when a court case comes up, the non white person's past is extensively examined for completely irrelevant but problematic behaviour.

In this case, the person is white, but female. But the argument is the same: if you are non-white or non-male, you must be perfect to 'deserve' justice. Your problematic behaviour is far more important than the fact that someone who didn't know about it has just harassed you, discriminated against you or even assaulted you.

It's completely irrelevant to this case whether Sandie Peggie has racist opinions. It is also completely irrelevant whether she liked to dance naked in the forest, dodging hedgehogs as she goes. Or whether she has three nipples. Doesn't matter.

It's one of the nasty features of this case that they used the same kind of techniques they use against rape victims. Too often, you have to be perfect to get your rapist convicted. Or to get a judge agree that you shouldn't have to take your clothes off in front of any man who calls himself a woman.

HildegardP · 12/12/2025 19:29

EweProfessorSurnameDoctorProfessor · 11/12/2025 19:48

She also said this on twitter “The ONLY reason why recognising gender identity belief as a protected one could be useful to defend sex based rights is to argue that the State ought not to implement policies on its basis. And this is the ONLY argument Anya Palmer did not make in the Forstater case.”

Asteriti forgets that the GRA narrowed what men could access when claiming to be women. Under the old system it was individual judges who decided & they appeared to be universally in thrall to, "vaguely feminine=woman=female". The system without the GRA was more, not less, permissive. Remember, Lord Carlile, one of the earliest & most dedicated proponents of genderwoo in Parliament was a judge before he was either an MP or a Peer. Imagine what things would look like if some of our current judges were making relevant case law without benefit of GRA (or EqA).

There's a good interview on Michael Foran's Substack with Naomi Cunningham that goes into the pre-GRA situation a little, it's enlightening stuff. IMO we should do away with the whole concept of "trans" - there is no movement, no "transition", one cannot move out of one's sex or move into the other sex, it's at most just body mods, make-believe, & the magical thinking of the worst black-letter lawyers.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 12/12/2025 19:35

ArabellaSaurus · 12/12/2025 16:39

I'll just highlight that again:

'What this appears to mean is that blanket exclusion of trans people from services and facilities that they need at work is likely to be unlawful in most cases. '

Remember the other respondent in FWS was the Scottish Government.

Who fought tooth and nail for the right to include 'men' in the definition of women, who STILL refuse to remove men from women's prisons, release schools guidance, etc.

I do not know why the fuck the Scotgov, judiciary, etc, are so damn intent on forcing men into women's spaces, services, and rights. But they are.

Am I reading this correctly?

The Scottish government is immediately moving to change policy based on the judgment in the SP case.
The judgment has been corrected once due to quotes that do not exist in the referenced case.
There are further significant issues with the judgment but the court has decided that no further edits can be made until the appeal is heard.

So Scotgov et al. get to continue making decisions based on a judgment that appears flawed for months or perhaps years?

Edit spelling

OP posts:
Asianbrit · 12/12/2025 19:39

Anactor · 12/12/2025 19:29

Unfortunately, what you are doing is applying an argument very popular among racists. That is, when a court case comes up, the non white person's past is extensively examined for completely irrelevant but problematic behaviour.

In this case, the person is white, but female. But the argument is the same: if you are non-white or non-male, you must be perfect to 'deserve' justice. Your problematic behaviour is far more important than the fact that someone who didn't know about it has just harassed you, discriminated against you or even assaulted you.

It's completely irrelevant to this case whether Sandie Peggie has racist opinions. It is also completely irrelevant whether she liked to dance naked in the forest, dodging hedgehogs as she goes. Or whether she has three nipples. Doesn't matter.

It's one of the nasty features of this case that they used the same kind of techniques they use against rape victims. Too often, you have to be perfect to get your rapist convicted. Or to get a judge agree that you shouldn't have to take your clothes off in front of any man who calls himself a woman.

Please read my posts.

Majorconcern · 12/12/2025 19:42

After much discussion of what a practicing lawyer may say of a horribly wrong decision, Colin Wynter KC finds the horriblest, which is the failure by Kemp to notice that the end of [213] FWS completely contradicts the premise of the opening, which is the bit Sandy seizes on:

'This error looks to be particularly serious. Whether through fatigue in not reading to the end of the paragraph in the FWS judgment or seeing a passage which appeared to support a theme and then overeagerly adopting it, it is a major error. Very poor. "Remarkable".'

Noodledog · 12/12/2025 19:42

Asianbrit · 12/12/2025 19:13

Yes but people trying to minimise it are not doing the argument any favours.

It doesn’t matter whether you are a saint or someone people cross the road to avoid, you still need to be able to access single sex spaces for personal safety or sex based needs.

edited to add saying she was a little bit racist or racist but didn’t mean it, just makes people look like they are blindly following a cause and suspending their critical and ethical facilities. .

Edited

I believe she made one racist comment, in a private whatsapp group, in seven years? And there's no evidence that she showed any racist prejudice in her treatment of her patients (or colleagues). I guarantee that every single one of us will at some time or other said something that would offend other people (not necessarily racist, just to make the obvious clear to people wilfully misunderstanding me). The idea that one comment, in a lifetime of working to help other people, makes her a person who is so bad that people say that "even someone like her" should expect to be treated lawfully by her employers is just so...depressing.

I'm an atheist, but bloody hell, I prefer the traditional religions. At least redemption and forgiveness are possible. Now it's one comment and you're forever damned.

It's the new moral code- as long as you say the correct thing, you're a decent person who can then be as selfish or harmful in your behaviour as you like, with no condemnation from your fellow, self identified, "progressives".

Maybe the concept of "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" could make a comeback.

MyrtleLion · 12/12/2025 19:45

NotAtMyAge · 12/12/2025 18:18

This case makes me so glad that TwiX has made likes inaccessible to anyone else.

I saw that Tribunal Tweets were reporting when it went live this week. I would have started a thread and pasted however,

  1. I have flu and I'm really poorly ick and exhausted, because
  2. I also had a job interview today that required extensive preparation including making a presentation.

There is a good chance I might get this job which will sadly put paid to my copying and pasting, but I wanted you all to know that I do have my eye on these cases and there was a very good reason I couldn't help out this time.

MyrtleLion · 12/12/2025 19:47

Also apologies for posting non readable versions of the parody corrections. I genuinely thought you would all be able to read them. Thank you to those who posted links and made it clear I was rickrolling.

I don't think it necessary to indicate that a post is a parody, but I can see in this case, it would have helped.

Also I had a job interview so was unavailable to respond with a clarification.

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