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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #58

1000 replies

nauticant · 11/12/2025 13:09

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025

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EweProfessorSurnameDoctorProfessor · 11/12/2025 17:45

I haven’t watched the press briefing so it might be covered in that but does the appeal include a possibility that the findings about Upton (that his version is credible and therefore able to be stated as fact in the press, for example) might be overturned too?

ContentedAlpaca · 11/12/2025 17:48

I'm wondering about appeal costs. Is this going to cost NHS Fife? Upton? Or will they both have to come to an arrangement?

EmpressDomesticatednottamed · 11/12/2025 17:49

yourhairiswinterfire · 11/12/2025 17:02

I typed up the conference in case it's handy for anyone who can't listen.

Sandie:
Thank you all for being here today. I would like to start by firstly thanking Neale Hanvey, who signposted me to Sex Matters. I turned to Neale and Sex Matters because my trade union RCN failed me when I needed them most.

Neale and Maya Forstater of SM supported and encourage me at a very dark time, following my suspension. Maya has been an inspiration and without her and her amazing team at Sex Matters, it is unlikely I would be standing here today.

Maya introduced me to my solicitor, Margaret Gribbon, and it is difficult to put into words how grateful I am to have found someone so determined to fight my corner. Margaret assembled an outstanding legal team by instructing Naomi Cunningham lead counsel and Dr Charlotte Elves junior counsel, whose brilliance exposed the grip gender ideology has on Fife health board, and how they treated me when I spoke the truth about sex.

I thank those who have made it possible for me to pursue my legal case with extraordinary generosity. I would also like to thank they many politicians and women's rights campaigners in Scotland who ensured I never felt alone in this battle, including For Women Scotland, Murray Blackburn Mackenzie, Women Won't Wheesht, Women's Rights Network Scotland, and LGB Alliance. As well as the many grassroots campaigners, many of whom attended my trial here in (?missed) to show their support.

I would like to thank everyone who donated to the crowd funder, set up in my name earlier this year which enabled me to make donations to charities very close to my heart. I have been overwhelmed by the messages of support from NHS colleagues, Scottish Ambulance Service, and from women and men here and abroad of all ages who have sent gifts, cards, and supportive messages. I would also like to thank the Darlington nurses and Christian Concern.

I would also like to thank the Scottish media and Tribunal Tweets, for taking such an interest in my case, and for reporting it to the wider public. Special thanks also to Dr Michael Foran, associate professor of law at University of Oxford, for his astute commentary on my case, and the law in this area.

Above all, I would like to thank my family and friends who have been a tower of strength over the past 2 years. My husband Darren, daughters Nicole and Emma and my mum Sheila, who has been my rock. Thank you all so much, and to my extended family and friends, many of whom are here today.

I must not forget Clare Bloom and volunteers of Women Won't Wheesht for helping organise today's event.

I am not a campaigner, and had never heard of the phrase 'gender critical' when I first raised complaints over 2 years ago about my employers decision to allow men into female-only changing rooms. I just knew instinctively that it wasn't right that women were expected to undress in front of men in private spaces, and I still believe this to be the case.

Whilst I am delighted that the tribunal was critical of Fife health board and found they had harassed me, the judgment I believe falls short in many respects and that is certainly why I won't be giving up this legal fight any time soon, and Margaret will tell you all about that.

Finally, I want to pay tribute to my late dad, who we lost in January, and who I know will be looking down on me feeling proud that he, with my mum, raised a daughter who did not, and will not wheesht.

Margaret Gribbon, Sandie's solicitor:

Fife health board unlawfully harassed Sandie Peggie over a lengthy period of time in 2024 in respect of 4 separate matters. This would be inexcusable for any employer, but particularly so in a large public sector body like NHS Fife. Given the tribunal findings that Fife health board committed multiple breaches of the Equality Act and persistently failed to comply with the tribunal order, my client is dismayed and troubled that senior politicians in Scotland saw fit to repeatedly express their full confidence in Fife health board.

Turning now to the tribunal's substantive findings, some of the findings are hugely problematic. For instance, the judgment places responsibility on female employees to raise complaints if they feel uncomfortable about sharing single-sex spaces with men. This ignores industrial realities. When Sandie objected she was suspended, subjected to an unreasonably lengthy disciplinary investigation, and falsely accused of patient care concerns. It emerged during the hearing that Fife health board then embarked on an archaeological dig to find material to discredit her. It was even suggested to Sandie by Fife health board's KC during her cross examination that she'd lied about having experienced a menstrual flood on Christmas Eve 2023. So against that background, it is difficult to envisage what woman would contemplate raising a complaint of this nature. In many workplaces there is a climate of fear around this issue, exacerbated by the failure of many trade unions, like Sandie's, to advocate for female members who seek to protect their hard won rights to single-sex spaces.

The judgment also places employers in the in(can't hear) position of having to make decisions about singe-sex workplace facilities based on the physical appearance of transgender employees and by asking them intrusive questions.

For these reasons and more, I can confirm that the tribunal's judgment will be appealed, and work on this is already underway. I'm also delighted to tell you that the legal team has been further strengthened by the addition of Ben Cooper KC, who will take the lead on the appeal which will be submitted to the Employment Appeal Tribunal next month. Thank you.

Thank you for doing this, I have no hearing problem but my brain much prefers to read such things rather than watch and listen, much appreciated.

Namechange2211 · 11/12/2025 17:50

MyAmpleSheep · 11/12/2025 17:32

The court didn't believe her version and preferred DU's. Having been found by a court, the BBC are entitled to refer to it as a fact. Likewise, any appeal court.

Edited

Even Upton said she didn’t say it in his own evidence. I think he said she referred to ‘its like the situation in the prisons’. Or words like that. She said she didn’t even say that.

alsoFanOfNaomi · 11/12/2025 17:52

EweProfessorSurnameDoctorProfessor · 11/12/2025 17:45

I haven’t watched the press briefing so it might be covered in that but does the appeal include a possibility that the findings about Upton (that his version is credible and therefore able to be stated as fact in the press, for example) might be overturned too?

Good question. The press conference didn't specify what was going to be appealed - does the appeal go up against just NHS Fife, or also against Upton? (I think it's clear from the wording that it will go against NHS Fife, right?)

MarieDeGournay · 11/12/2025 17:53

alsoFanOfNaomi · 11/12/2025 17:43

I could be wrong, but I don't think we'll literally be seeing Naomi and Ben in the same courtroom over this - seems more likely that "the team" here means the team engaged in the whole swathe of litigation around all the SP cases, plus Naomi also presumably has a Kelly appeal and the AHF vs UCU appeal (do garden for that, they're so low, and it's a great "unions can't vilify their GC members" case) plus whatever else we're not looking at. I should think letting her off being in the room for the SP appeal might be part of the point, there's only one of her! However, I could imagine it might be a great opportunity for Charlotte to work with Ben, and wouldn't that be fun?

You're right, they may go for Elves and Cooper up top, with Cunningham on the bench as an option, maybe go 4-2-3-1 and bring her on as an attacking midfielder, creating scoring opportunity for the striker...

alsoFanOfNaomi · 11/12/2025 17:56

The BBC article says "NHS Fife later released a statement which said: "We acknowledge the claimant's right to appeal in line with the Employment Tribunal process."" - don't think we've seen that statement yet, does it say anything else? I'll go and search in a mo, sorry if it's been posted and I've missed it... [ETA not on https://www.nhsfife.org/news-updates/latest-news/ for a start]
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2pnzwl2r4o

Sandie Peggie in pink jacket and grey blouse, wearing glasses, in front of a mic. There are people behind her.

Sandie Peggie says 'I will not give up legal fight' in trans doctor row

The nurse has confirmed her legal team will appeal the findings of the tribunal which were published on Monday.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2pnzwl2r4o

MarieDeGournay · 11/12/2025 17:59

I know it shouldn't matter but - jeez couldn't they have found a better photo of SP than that one? She looked so strong and positive and smiling so much of the time, they must have gone out of their way to pick one where she looks otherwise😠

alsoFanOfNaomi · 11/12/2025 18:00

She looks great. Formidable.

FallenSloppyDead2 · 11/12/2025 18:02

Unfocussed photo of DU wheeled out again though 🙄

NebulousSupportPostcard · 11/12/2025 18:03

I can't find a specific "Anne Woodhouse" thread on here but, just for anyone needing a Naomi fix, she was representing AW, a clinical psychologist at a regulatory HCPTS tribunal this week. Decision on application to dismiss case expected after 2pm tomorrow.

V short but satisfying day, involving a male headteacher/drag performer being cross-examined while stood behind a specially erected bigly screen, so as not to be traumatised at the sight of the female psychologist whose alleged/contested "twitter likes" he complained about 3 years ago. tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/health-and-care-professions-council

MarieDeGournay · 11/12/2025 18:04

MarieDeGournay · 11/12/2025 17:53

You're right, they may go for Elves and Cooper up top, with Cunningham on the bench as an option, maybe go 4-2-3-1 and bring her on as an attacking midfielder, creating scoring opportunity for the striker...

I'm going to stop this now. Partly because it might become tiresome, but mostly because I've already exhausted everything I know about soccer Smile
[I'm Irish, it's 'soccer' to us, 'football' is Gaelic football]

prh47bridge · 11/12/2025 18:06

EweProfessorSurnameDoctorProfessor · 11/12/2025 17:45

I haven’t watched the press briefing so it might be covered in that but does the appeal include a possibility that the findings about Upton (that his version is credible and therefore able to be stated as fact in the press, for example) might be overturned too?

It is not possible to appeal the tribunal's findings of fact, including its findings on the credibility of witnesses. The only way those get overturned is if the EAT decides that the tribunal was biased and sends the case back to be heard by a fresh tribunal, in which case it is as if this tribunal never happened.

SwirlyGates · 11/12/2025 18:06

ContentedAlpaca · 11/12/2025 17:42

Wasn't he also on some sort of beauty course where young women were supposed to let their guard down due to his womanly feelings?
It seems like they're trying to distance him from actual transwoman and I'm not sure he would have been considered not a transwoman until Nicola whatsername decided he wasn't.

Yes he was. And the teenage girls who complained that they felt uncomfortable having to train with him (as I recall, practising massages in states of undress) were told that he was really a woman and they were transphobic bigots. Hmm

WearyAuldWumman · 11/12/2025 18:07

It's quite moving for me, hearing Sandie Peggie's voice for the first time. She's just an ordinary Fife wifie: I'm hearing the voice of my family, my neighbours...and ordinary woman having to stand up to a big bastard* of a posh boy doctor.

How bloody dare he. The conceit of the man.

*My mum would tell me off for using bad language.

ContentedAlpaca · 11/12/2025 18:09

Me too - it's the first time I have heard Sandie speak. I could tell she was nervous at first, naturally but found her stride. The photo looks calm and business like. I like it.

CriticalConditionUnamendedVersion · 11/12/2025 18:10

I've just noticed she's wearing a Sex Matters brooch on her lapel. It looks all gold. I have an 'ordinary' one in blue enamel which I got when I attended an event they were involved in.

It may just be a trick of the light in the photo but I'd love to think SM do 'special editions' in gold and award them to women for Extraordinary Service in the Field.

TheCrenchinglyMcQuaffenBrothers · 11/12/2025 18:11

^I just knew instinctively that it wasn't right that women were expected to undress in front of men in private spaces ^

I’m not a regular on these threads, like most of you. And I dip in and out following this case, but I’m struck by this excerpt, it is so powerful. It’s the whole crux isn’t it? So simple. How could anyone possibly, truthfully, believe that this is not the normal, utterly correct and frankly unimpeachable stance on the whole issue?

EweProfessorSurnameDoctorProfessor · 11/12/2025 18:11

prh47bridge · 11/12/2025 18:06

It is not possible to appeal the tribunal's findings of fact, including its findings on the credibility of witnesses. The only way those get overturned is if the EAT decides that the tribunal was biased and sends the case back to be heard by a fresh tribunal, in which case it is as if this tribunal never happened.

Thank you! So the facts remain as established by the tribunal but the findings as based on an understanding of the law can be challenged?

What specific things might be able to be changed in this instance?

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 11/12/2025 18:12

ProfLargofesse · 11/12/2025 16:42

I think it is a clever strategic move because Kemp is a misogynist.

They're not going to see Kemp again. Hopefully no one sees him again.

Its off to the employment appeal tribunal!

CriticalConditionUnamendedVersion · 11/12/2025 18:13

NebulousSupportPostcard · 11/12/2025 18:03

I can't find a specific "Anne Woodhouse" thread on here but, just for anyone needing a Naomi fix, she was representing AW, a clinical psychologist at a regulatory HCPTS tribunal this week. Decision on application to dismiss case expected after 2pm tomorrow.

V short but satisfying day, involving a male headteacher/drag performer being cross-examined while stood behind a specially erected bigly screen, so as not to be traumatised at the sight of the female psychologist whose alleged/contested "twitter likes" he complained about 3 years ago. tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/health-and-care-professions-council

The headteacher is a drag artist?? FFS.

WearyAuldWumman · 11/12/2025 18:15

I've just heard the comment about Sandie Peggie being accused of lying about menstrual flooding.

I worked in a new build Scottish secondary where the single sex toilet facilities were open to the corridor "in order to stop bullying and vandalism".

The result for me was that - in spite of being on HRT and in spite of diving into the loos every 55 minutes to change a night-time pad I had a bleed-through and absolutely no way of cleaning my skirt discreetly. Had to cover the area with my jacket and rush home as quickly as possible.

A colleague a year younger than me had a similar problem and finished up taking time off work until an ablation sorted things out for her.

Nobody in authority gives a bugger about the dignity of women.

Who the f*ck imagines that a middle-aged woman would lie about flooding?

WearyAuldWumman · 11/12/2025 18:18

Just got a subscriber email from the editor of the Courier:

Dear Subscriber,

I was recently challenged on LinkedIn about why The Courier has taken such an interest in the Sandie Peggie case.

It’s an accusation I've heard before – that it is a “niche” story, too complicated, too toxic and too far down the culture-war rabbit hole for normal people to follow.

The employment tribunal’s ruling this week should put that nonsense to bed.

Read more: How NHS Fife failed Sandie Peggie after harassment ruling

It has plunged NHS Fife into a full-blown crisis and every sizeable employer in the UK is now asking the same question: what does this mean for us?

The judgment is, on the surface, narrow.

It finds that NHS Fife harassed one of its own nurses by the way it handled her complaint about sharing a women’s changing room with a trans colleague.

It rejects most of Ms Peggie’s other claims and clears the trans woman involved – Dr Beth Upton - of any wrongdoing.

Read more: Beth Upton bust-up evidence ‘more convincing’ than Sandie Peggie

It also walks a careful line on the law, saying both sex and gender reassignment are protected and should be treated with equal seriousness.

This is not a sweeping victory for one side of the argument - but it is a stinging rebuke of how a major public employer dealt with a problem it hoped might simply go away.

It makes clear two employees were failed by their employer and forced to go through a brutal public process to resolve a workplace disagreement.

That is where the crisis for NHS Fife lies.

The tribunal concludes that once concerns were raised, the board did not move quickly or clearly enough to protect Ms Peggie from a hostile working environment.

It left her hanging for months, allowed the situation to drift, and in doing so crossed the line into unlawful harassment.

You can hear the political fallout in the demands for heads to roll at the top of the organisation, but the more important damage is to trust.

Read more: NHS Fife chief faces sacking calls after Sandie Peggie ruling

If a large health board cannot show it understands its own duties under the Equality Act, patients and staff are entitled to ask what else they are failing at.

https://email.thecourier.co.uk/e3t/Ctc/2N+113/d2-PcD04/VWJ6FG2p8TpsW2G9_GL8DrXMcW50jS-p5GYN7JN5bb0hH5nR3bW6N1X8z6lZ3mwW5T-hfp5nLg9DN54YDMbpK61NW6NRP5y39jTDhVh-3xZ7mvhgxN4x81k9Bm-sVW4VZ0qJ5sl45DW74BdWq7V0pZ0W2gQvs250DjmMW74DPyk1BB2SLW7-hg943kchrBW1mZX3_79nKy7VPl4TB8l8XMXW6ZLF7J6GZtpBW206pYQ8XjPL4VrYxMn4P7-_sW1gRjRL68xXn8W1805QP6m9wd_W18KrXm7RfBnvN6ZrKJ4KHLssW1YGQxq7_lnwVW5lSyMb6T85ZBW2vzVvM3BgFLxW7YJt-T76wn34W8nVhdv4TT_dwW1Kfnfp1rzgXyW8C_l7l15CzhLW2LbCjd5R872WW56rGRW84KYKcW9jKPD47TtpxZW3PSF1j51DxgwW6MmRCn5jgzt7W5g9qpm81v170W3dxdhs8Zc3ZCW18G-wK5PnyxYW5WZS9x69jlpGW1k9Vny7WPKYSW7v6yrg5QsmmXW3-4B7Z6TX_67f31L84W04

prh47bridge · 11/12/2025 18:18

EweProfessorSurnameDoctorProfessor · 11/12/2025 18:11

Thank you! So the facts remain as established by the tribunal but the findings as based on an understanding of the law can be challenged?

What specific things might be able to be changed in this instance?

If the EAT decides that the tribunal got the law wrong, they would say so and consider how that affected the judgement. This could result in SP winning more of her claims, possibly all of them.

ItsCoolForCats · 11/12/2025 18:18

TheCrenchinglyMcQuaffenBrothers · 11/12/2025 18:11

^I just knew instinctively that it wasn't right that women were expected to undress in front of men in private spaces ^

I’m not a regular on these threads, like most of you. And I dip in and out following this case, but I’m struck by this excerpt, it is so powerful. It’s the whole crux isn’t it? So simple. How could anyone possibly, truthfully, believe that this is not the normal, utterly correct and frankly unimpeachable stance on the whole issue?

They have just played this clip on the 6 o'clock news on radio 4. I agree, it is a really powerful statement.

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