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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #58

1000 replies

nauticant · 11/12/2025 13:09

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025

OP posts:
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58
NebulousSupportPostcard · 11/12/2025 17:14

SqueakyDinosaur · 11/12/2025 16:57

Margaret Gribbon, SP's solicitor, said that they had received the judgment at 10am on Tuesday, 3 hours before it was released to the press and public.

At the end of the hearing, NC had asked for sight of it 5 days ahead of general release, and IIRC Jane Russell concurred, and the judge agreed in principle but said he would have to ask his boss (the President of the Tribunal) for permission to do that. So it could be that Big Sond's hands were tied when it came to the timing. Still doesn't excuse the sloppiness and duplicity, though.

Wasnt Kelly v Leonardo request for embargoed advance sight also referred to same President. And that outcome was made public a week or so after the date it was signed off?

So both EJs would have made similar request of same President but Kemp only gave 3 hours advance to Peggie's team.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 11/12/2025 17:15

ickky · 11/12/2025 16:54

The collateral damage of this case just keeps building.

The reputational damage to NHS Fife.

The CEO taking "early retirement".

The Judge that is being widely mocked.

How many more WTF moments are coming?

If they ever do make a mini series of all these Tribunals, people will think it has been exaggerated for sensationalist artistic purposes.

You couldn't make it up.

As always im Baffled at the sheer number of ppl willing to immolate their careers and reputations to support men who like wearing women's clothes to have access to women's spaces

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 11/12/2025 17:15

ickky · 11/12/2025 16:54

The collateral damage of this case just keeps building.

The reputational damage to NHS Fife.

The CEO taking "early retirement".

The Judge that is being widely mocked.

How many more WTF moments are coming?

If they ever do make a mini series of all these Tribunals, people will think it has been exaggerated for sensationalist artistic purposes.

You couldn't make it up.

It is because some people have been trained to accept the mantra TWAW and this clouds judgment.
Many people climbed aboard the good ship TWAW and enjoyed the ticker tape, adulation and spectacle of the embarkation.
They partied on deck secure in the knowledge that they were on the right side of history.
So much fun was being had that no one bothered to check the direction that the ship was actually heading
It is not so much fun now that the ship is being repeatedly smashed against the rocks of reality.

Poms · 11/12/2025 17:18

ocool · 11/12/2025 15:45

That clip on Youtube was very moving. It practically brought me to tears to see the dignity of Sandie and her family, the support of all those around her, and her willingness to carry on the battle for all our sakes.

At the same time, I was raging that it had to come to this to keep men out of our spaces. Every trick in the book, every semantic interpretation, every judgement designed to put us back in our box.

I am humbled by the grace and courage of women like Sandie to carry on the fight for all of us.

It brought me to tears too. I admire her courage so much but also my heart breaks for her and what she is being put through.

ProfessorEmeritaVeraAtkins · 11/12/2025 17:20

ProfLargofesse · 11/12/2025 16:42

I think it is a clever strategic move because Kemp is a misogynist.

But is Kemp involved in any appeal? Surely an appeal is to another judge?

Instructions · 11/12/2025 17:21

The young men of Reddit are petulant indeed tonight

I need to stay here surrounded by intelligent, witty women who teach me something new every time I visit and not waste my evening arguing with them

dynamiccactus · 11/12/2025 17:22

ProfLargofesse · 11/12/2025 17:04

I think there is a difference between a lawyer using AI in their submissions which is the previous case being mentioned and a judge using it in a judgment. It doesn't really matter if clerks assisted, the writing of the judgment is his responsibility, like the captain of a ship, and since his arguments are building from these quotes he absolutely should have gone to source whatever had been presented to him either in submissions or by clerks.

Edited

Absolutely. The buck finishes with the judge but I wondered if he'd written it himself or got someone else to write the first draft. It's just too easy to skip over bits and not read them properly when you use AI (or just get someone else to do a first draft for you).

I don't think our juniors should be using AI to generate first drafts of things unless they just use it as a framework. They should use it to finesse the wording instead. Avoids issues like this.

ItsCoolForCats · 11/12/2025 17:22

It was great to see Sandie seeming so determined and prepared to see this through.

I'm thinking ahead to the future and what the outcome might be. Say the EAT finds in SP's favour and the legal position is that single sex spaces must be single sex, and it doesn't matter how long someone's hair is or how much makeup they wear. And employers actually follow the law because they don't want to get sued and they tell TiM they must use the mens or third spaces.

Could you imagine the histrionics? There will be protests, threats, mass meltdowns and letter writing campaigns to MPs. And it does worry me that the government will be put under a huge amount of pressure to amend the Equality Act.

teawamutu · 11/12/2025 17:23

I'm trying to find the right words for this, and I don't think I have quite - but it was especially heartening to see Sandie looking so well, and confident, after all the rotten shabby attempts to smear her during the case.

Yes, she's said things I wouldn't. Yes, she may hold views I don't like. Unlike (apparently) EJ Kemp, I don't think that means she doesn't deserve her basic legal rights as a woman, and I'm glad to see FWR feels the same.

Greyskybluesky · 11/12/2025 17:26

Instructions · 11/12/2025 17:21

The young men of Reddit are petulant indeed tonight

I need to stay here surrounded by intelligent, witty women who teach me something new every time I visit and not waste my evening arguing with them

How do you manage to argue with them without getting deleted or banned? It's a total echo chamber on there

ProfessorofSelfPortraiture · 11/12/2025 17:26

Yes, she's said things I wouldn't. Yes, she may hold views I don't like. Unlike (apparently) EJ Kemp, I don't think that means she doesn't deserve her basic legal rights as a woman, and I'm glad to see FWR feels the same.

No, I think you're being hard on Big Sond here. He just doesn't think women have basic legal rights.

ProfessorEmeritaVeraAtkins · 11/12/2025 17:27

SqueakyDinosaur · 11/12/2025 17:08

V1.2

ProfMummBRaaarrrTheEverLeaking · 11/12/2025 17:28

From the BBC news story about the appeal.

I'm sure Sandie has said she DIDN'T reference Isla Bryson?!?! The way that story reads is as if she talked about Bryson, by name, to Upton in the changing room!

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #58
Boiledbeetle · 11/12/2025 17:28

Instructions · 11/12/2025 17:21

The young men of Reddit are petulant indeed tonight

I need to stay here surrounded by intelligent, witty women who teach me something new every time I visit and not waste my evening arguing with them

Do you have the link. I know someone posted it earlier. But I'm a lazy fucker and can't be arsed searching.

Totallygripped · 11/12/2025 17:32

MarieDeGournay · 11/12/2025 16:57

It was me who brought this up on the previous thread - I like to state the literal number of transpeople because it is mindblowing that such a small number of people could turn society upside down as they have.

I use the 250,000 figure to be generous; if there are, as it appears, a lot less who really IDed as such in the census, then that makes it even more mindblowing.

The more people realise that all this is because of a tiny tiny number of people - I think it's 0.03% of the UK population - who already have the same rights as any other UK subject, the better.

It is really interesting to see the numbers (tho tbh and don't want to derail I have never really understood what non-binary means). There are though the "allies". The "my trans sisters" and the obviously male young men who turn out presumably to add a bit of threatening physicality to "anti terf" events.
Someone also asked likely timing of EAT hearing; I'd also be interested. And not wanting to get too far ahead but can you leapfrog from EAT to SC? Anyway time enough for me to find the scary beetle/crocs image from eons ago. Also don't understand gerbils...but I might catch up on that too...

MyAmpleSheep · 11/12/2025 17:32

ProfMummBRaaarrrTheEverLeaking · 11/12/2025 17:28

From the BBC news story about the appeal.

I'm sure Sandie has said she DIDN'T reference Isla Bryson?!?! The way that story reads is as if she talked about Bryson, by name, to Upton in the changing room!

The court didn't believe her version and preferred DU's. Having been found by a court, the BBC are entitled to refer to it as a fact. Likewise, any appeal court.

MarieDeGournay · 11/12/2025 17:33

ProfMummBRaaarrrTheEverLeaking · 11/12/2025 17:28

From the BBC news story about the appeal.

I'm sure Sandie has said she DIDN'T reference Isla Bryson?!?! The way that story reads is as if she talked about Bryson, by name, to Upton in the changing room!

I think the judge decided that on balance he believed that it was reasonable to understand that she was referring to IB when she made a comment about prisons to DrU.
145. The claimant said that the second respondent could not change in the changing room and that it would help if the second respondent did not do so. She said that women have a right to feel safe and that it was just like that person in the prisons. That was a reference to the case of Isla Bryson/Adam Graham.

630. The second aspect was her evidence that when referring to “the prisons incident” during the Christmas Eve incident she was not aware that that involved a rapist, as a broad summary of her evidence. That we considered to be not credible. There was an admitted fact that “C referred to the “women’s prison incident”, that is the Isla Bryson/Adam Graham case.” It is taken from the claimant’s pleadings, at paragraph 13 of the Response Table which the admitted fact cross references. In light of the circumstances of that case, which involved a person who as a man raped two women, who then commenced to transition to female including the change of name, and where an issue arose when initially placed in a women’s prison, which is a matter of particular concern, and of interest, to those with gender critical beliefs such as the claimant, that evidence seeking to distance herself from the remark which related to a rapist was we considered not credible.

crabbyoldbat · 11/12/2025 17:33

What happens now with the other cases? I can see that the complaint against the RCN goes ahead regardless, but what about the ones against individuals at NHSFife? Do they have to wait until after appeal? And, while I'm here - what courts do they go to? What are they specifically accused of?

Looks like Sandie's team will be busy

ThreeWordHarpy · 11/12/2025 17:35

MarieDeGournay · 11/12/2025 16:21

Don't think I haven't noticed how it goes all 'Naomi who?' once Ben steps into view. Fickle!
Or maybe just straight Grin

Alas for us and luckily for BC, he isn’t.

(Straight that is)

If I could channel just 20% of his encyclopaedic knowledge of his evidence, his attention to detail and his calm, clear way of expressing himself with a tiny hint of humour (it would be unkind of me to ask how that is working out for you…) then I would be smashing my career and earning a considerable amount more than I am doing.

Imagine what the UK would be like if we could get BC, NC, CE, and others like Akua Rheindorf in government to run the country.

Conxis · 11/12/2025 17:37

SqueakyDinosaur · 11/12/2025 15:28

I would like to extend my sincere sympathies to @nauticant , though.

Me too!
Im so sorry @nauticant
Remember this is how your workplace so if you’re off sick we’ll need a Drs note uploaded to this thread, and if you want annual leave you’ll need to submit a request to us well in advance.

MarieDeGournay · 11/12/2025 17:39

ThreeWordHarpy · 11/12/2025 17:35

Alas for us and luckily for BC, he isn’t.

(Straight that is)

If I could channel just 20% of his encyclopaedic knowledge of his evidence, his attention to detail and his calm, clear way of expressing himself with a tiny hint of humour (it would be unkind of me to ask how that is working out for you…) then I would be smashing my career and earning a considerable amount more than I am doing.

Imagine what the UK would be like if we could get BC, NC, CE, and others like Akua Rheindorf in government to run the country.

So Ben is out of bounds for you straight wims, and Naomi is out of bounds for us lesbian wims Hmm
Fortunately that's not the pointSmile

MyAmpleSheep · 11/12/2025 17:40

ThreeWordHarpy · 11/12/2025 17:35

Alas for us and luckily for BC, he isn’t.

(Straight that is)

If I could channel just 20% of his encyclopaedic knowledge of his evidence, his attention to detail and his calm, clear way of expressing himself with a tiny hint of humour (it would be unkind of me to ask how that is working out for you…) then I would be smashing my career and earning a considerable amount more than I am doing.

Imagine what the UK would be like if we could get BC, NC, CE, and others like Akua Rheindorf in government to run the country.

He is, as they say, very much across the detail.

ContentedAlpaca · 11/12/2025 17:42

ProfMummBRaaarrrTheEverLeaking · 11/12/2025 17:28

From the BBC news story about the appeal.

I'm sure Sandie has said she DIDN'T reference Isla Bryson?!?! The way that story reads is as if she talked about Bryson, by name, to Upton in the changing room!

Wasn't he also on some sort of beauty course where young women were supposed to let their guard down due to his womanly feelings?
It seems like they're trying to distance him from actual transwoman and I'm not sure he would have been considered not a transwoman until Nicola whatsername decided he wasn't.

teawamutu · 11/12/2025 17:43

ProfessorofSelfPortraiture · 11/12/2025 17:26

Yes, she's said things I wouldn't. Yes, she may hold views I don't like. Unlike (apparently) EJ Kemp, I don't think that means she doesn't deserve her basic legal rights as a woman, and I'm glad to see FWR feels the same.

No, I think you're being hard on Big Sond here. He just doesn't think women have basic legal rights.

I dunno, I feel like there was a distinct whiff of disapproval in his finding that Sandie wasn't credible.

alsoFanOfNaomi · 11/12/2025 17:43

I could be wrong, but I don't think we'll literally be seeing Naomi and Ben in the same courtroom over this - seems more likely that "the team" here means the team engaged in the whole swathe of litigation around all the SP cases, plus Naomi also presumably has a Kelly appeal and the AHF vs UCU appeal (do garden for that, they're so low, and it's a great "unions can't vilify their GC members" case) plus whatever else we're not looking at. I should think letting her off being in the room for the SP appeal might be part of the point, there's only one of her! However, I could imagine it might be a great opportunity for Charlotte to work with Ben, and wouldn't that be fun?

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