Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #57

1000 replies

nauticant · 09/12/2025 07:55

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to:
[email protected]

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
64
ProfessorEmeritaVeraAtkins · 11/12/2025 12:32

they're going to have to do more than put lipstick on this pig.

Beerlzebub · 11/12/2025 12:33

Merida46 · 11/12/2025 12:25

Upton still has his knob so should be using the male Changing Rooms

Having his dick cut off does not make a man into a woman.

Nothing makes a man into a woman.

usernameinserthere · 11/12/2025 12:35

Updating the quotes is a whitewash- the judgment should be pulled

300 pages of pish

Everything probably hasn’t been properly verified. They’re only picking up corrections as they go.

If I were the Judiciary I’d pull it to maintain trust in public institutions

EmpressDomesticatednottamed · 11/12/2025 12:36

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 11/12/2025 12:23

I remember finding that out when helping a friend with her bees. She called them 'the girls' and explained about how the male drones are driven out in autumn because they don't do any work and just eat. We kept bees for a while and there were very few drones.

We keep bees, not only do they chuck all the males out to die every year to starve but if they do manage to mate with a queen their penis gets ripped out, which has left me wondering if that makes them trans bees. Of course they are dead after this but I gather one has to get ones priorities straight, whats a little dying compared to a misgendering.

alsoFanOfNaomi · 11/12/2025 12:36

And in the meantime NC is on a brief lunch break from another case!

It will be interesting to see what changes they actually make in the judgement when they release the updated version. Will they try to fix all the known errors? How could anyone think that just doing that will make the problem go away? There is not enough popcorn in the world.

MarieDeGournay · 11/12/2025 12:38

ProfessorofSelfPortraiture · 11/12/2025 12:20

I believe 'Would you drink "milk" from a bull?' is a well-known alternative to the Staniland question in some circles of Twitter...

(Edited to remove pointless emojis. Note to self: you are on Mumsnet, not WhatsApp, ffs.)

Edited again to add that your emojis are very apt and funny, Vegemite, I just tend to overuse them myself. Realised after I'd posted that it might have sounded like I was getting at you.

Will try to stop editing now.

😂

Edited

There used to be an ad for a 'branded' milk on the telly ages ago, the talking walking cartoon main character was ... well, it was a cow, because it had udders [rather interestingly located in the circs] but it wore a leather jacket and shades like The Fonz and had a man's voice.

An early example of transgenderism in the bovine population, perhaps?😏

[I often have to do an emoji cull too, Professor]

Mochudubh · 11/12/2025 12:38

Merida46 · 11/12/2025 12:25

Upton still has his knob so should be using the male Changing Rooms

Knob or no, he's still a bloke with every cell of his being so should be using the male changing rooms.

ProfessorofSelfPortraiture · 11/12/2025 12:39

If they do release another version can we have some more squirrels drinking Red Bull, only judicial ones this time?

murasaki · 11/12/2025 12:44

alsoFanOfNaomi · 11/12/2025 12:38

Now the BBC's on it. Weird that they're only mentioning the Maya quote, though, when that's not the most serious one.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2pnzwl2r4o

Edited

There's something we never thought we'd see them report a few months ago.

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 11/12/2025 12:44

EmpressDomesticatednottamed · 11/12/2025 12:36

We keep bees, not only do they chuck all the males out to die every year to starve but if they do manage to mate with a queen their penis gets ripped out, which has left me wondering if that makes them trans bees. Of course they are dead after this but I gather one has to get ones priorities straight, whats a little dying compared to a misgendering.

The part that stayed with me is that if the males try to get back into the hive, the females chew their wings off and kick them out again. A bit grisly, but saves a great deal on winter food bills.

Keeptoiletssafe · 11/12/2025 12:44

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 11/12/2025 11:40

Couldn't the judge's vetting argument be turned on its head?

If the vetting process significantly reduces the likelihood of sexual assault (also general assault?) in the women's SSS toilets then surely the same is true if trans women (biological men) use the toilets for their biological sex?

This is what I have been researching too as I want everyone to be safe. I can not find any evidence.

I know women who don’t want to use women’s are more likely to want mixed sex toilets. They hate the smell, the dirt and get scared in men’s toilet and the ‘gender neutral’ designs too interestingly enough. So have a female response. I know men who don’t want to use men’s want to use the women’s.

No one likes the men’s, if you ask any man he will probably say there are toilets he’s been in that he was a little bit worried about being in, that’s they are disgusting etc. My husband has been in football ground toilets and a pub where he got out quick.

Men who are happy being men have mixed views about ‘gender neutral’ toilets depending on design and sound resistance, but tend to be the default users as women exclude. The privacy means they are useful for ‘long sit downs’.

I also know it was argued in parliament it was discriminatory towards men to have a separate clause in the Sexual Offences Act specifically about toilets.

When I was at school, the naughty boys were put inbetween the good girls to try and dilute their behaviour. It was unfair on the girls.

The differences with behaviour in toilets is sexed and ramped up thousands of times. Mixed sexed toilets don’t work as you are creating very private cubicles in mixed sexed areas.

usernameinserthere · 11/12/2025 12:46

alsoFanOfNaomi · 11/12/2025 12:38

Now the BBC's on it. Weird that they're only mentioning the Maya quote, though, when that's not the most serious one.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2pnzwl2r4o

Edited

This case is the gift that keeps on giving

Mmmnotsure · 11/12/2025 12:46

ArabellaSaurus · 11/12/2025 11:11

I hereby bestow you with the Judy Murray Award for raising a Sensible Male.

Yes. That interview with Andy Murray where he's asked about someone being the first US player to reach a major semi final since 2009 and AM immediately says "male player".

My links/pics never seem to show, but anyway...

ILoveLaLaLand · 11/12/2025 12:47

It's a farcical judgement at every level.

A male doctor repeatedly used the female nurses changing room instead of the male (or female) doctors' changing room.

The female doctors in this situation are class A handmaidens who clearly despise the nurses and view them as inferior beings who should do as they are told by their superiors.

Mr Upton did not even bother to get a GRC!
Why would he?!
He is a pampered entitled man supported by other pampered entitled men and women.

The judge's decision reflects how he and other elites view the working class - with complete and utter contempt.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 11/12/2025 12:47

I think that they mention the Maya quote as that is the most easily relatable error with the nice back story that Maya knows every word of her judgment.

DrRevProfCriticalConditionETC · 11/12/2025 12:47

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 11/12/2025 12:23

I remember finding that out when helping a friend with her bees. She called them 'the girls' and explained about how the male drones are driven out in autumn because they don't do any work and just eat. We kept bees for a while and there were very few drones.

The drones, of which there are only a couple of hundred in a colony of about fifty thousand, do two things. Eat and have sex. The few who get to do it don't survive the having sex. The act concludes with their genitals exploding. Any drones who make it as far as autumn have their wings chewed off and are literally kicked out of the hive so they are not a drain on limited winter food stores. 'Tis brutal.

Waves to fellow beek @Vegemiteandhoneyontoast Grin

MyAmpleSheep · 11/12/2025 12:48

RovingPublicEnquiry · 11/12/2025 12:22

So would the third, mixed-sex space that the SC calls for fix that? The TW would keep their dignity in the workplace that way, right?

Possibly. Possibly the provision of a third gender neutral space vitiates the reasonability of a trans person feeling their dignity has been violated. That's not the same as saying that a workplace must provide a gender neutral option. And what if they don't?

From the EA:

In deciding whether conduct has the effect referred to in subsection (1)(b) [of violating B's dignity, or ...creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for B.]
each of the following must be taken into account—
(a)the perception of B;
(b)the other circumstances of the case;
(c)whether it is reasonable for the conduct to have that effect.

It may be that's it's just not reasonable for a trans person to feel their diginity has been violated by being made to use the toilet of their sex, or the "other circumstances of the case" make it ok - but I can see why a court would be reluctant to make a blanket decision.

MarieDeGournay · 11/12/2025 12:49

murasaki · 11/12/2025 12:44

There's something we never thought we'd see them report a few months ago.

I suppose we should be grudgingly grateful to Big Sond because he made such an egregious pigs ear of the judgement that even the BBC can't ignore it!

Keeptoiletssafe · 11/12/2025 12:50

ProfessorofSelfPortraiture · 11/12/2025 11:00

I try to have a default female assumption whenever sex is irrelevant and saying "she" isn't obviously contrary to facts. 😁 It started with reading Invisible Women and realising that everyone is conditioned to assume male - so I made an effort to call eg squirrels or cats or cuddly toys "she" so my DD would think female was the default human, and it went on from there...

(Edited for typo.)

Edited

oh is that why it says ‘he’ throughout the clauses about toilets, sexual activity and also voyeurism in the Sexual Offences Act (200:)? 🫣😬

Edit: there is more than a hint of irony in this post btw😠

ProfessorEmeritaVeraAtkins · 11/12/2025 12:50

It's amazing to see the Beeb use 'fake' but without ay quotations marks - there's no doubt or fudging that the quote being 'fake' is a personal opinion.

alsoFanOfNaomi · 11/12/2025 12:50

ILoveLaLaLand · 11/12/2025 12:47

It's a farcical judgement at every level.

A male doctor repeatedly used the female nurses changing room instead of the male (or female) doctors' changing room.

The female doctors in this situation are class A handmaidens who clearly despise the nurses and view them as inferior beings who should do as they are told by their superiors.

Mr Upton did not even bother to get a GRC!
Why would he?!
He is a pampered entitled man supported by other pampered entitled men and women.

The judge's decision reflects how he and other elites view the working class - with complete and utter contempt.

Edited

The first part of that is persistent misinformation. There was no doctors' changing room; doctors were expected to use the same changing facilities as the nurses, unless they were consultants in which case they had other options. Upton wasn't a consultant and didn't.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 11/12/2025 12:52

MyAmpleSheep · 11/12/2025 12:15

I think we need to think in terms of harassment, not discrimination.

In a workplace conduct related to a PC that has the purpose or effect of violating dignity or creating a hostile workplace is illegal.

Allowing or disallowing trans identifying people to use the bathroom of their choice can be argued to violate the dignity of either women, or trans identifying people, depending on which way the decision is made.

I think that is at root of the “balance” issue. So, harassment, not discrimination. Hence the need to reinterpret the workplace regulations.

conduct related to a PC

Provisioning single-sex changing rooms is conduct related to the PC of sex only. It's got nothing to do with the PC of GR. So how can it be harassment on the basis of GR?

Boiledbeetle · 11/12/2025 12:53

OhBuggerandArse · 11/12/2025 11:55

Well that wasn't what I was expecting on returning to this thread after going out for an appointment.

This is going to be interesting!!

StripyShirt · 11/12/2025 12:53

PrettyDamnCosmic · 11/12/2025 10:13

I'm male & don't have a problem with TIMs in the Gents. I don't think that TIMs should be allowed into any female SSS. My wife on the other hand thinks that some poor blokes are born into the wrong body & that provided these men have had full bottom surgery she is happy to share the Ladies with them.

Also male and couldn't care less re trans people of either sex being in the Gents.

Unless they were obviously up to no good, which would have nothing to do with their 'trans-ness' anyway, they would be no more of a threat than the normal users.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread