Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #57

1000 replies

nauticant · 09/12/2025 07:55

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to:
[email protected]

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
64
alsoFanOfNaomi · 10/12/2025 12:25

alsoFanOfNaomi · 10/12/2025 12:18

What about this quote? It sounds like the kind of thing the EAT in Forstater might possibly have said - maybe orally in introduction? - but I don't find it in the judgement. Anyone?

The EAT held in Forstater that what are generally referred to as gender critical beliefs, which are also referred to as sex realist beliefs, fall within the terms of section 10. The decision also sets out in general terms the context in which decisions such as those we take is undertaken, which includes the following:
“We wish to make clear at the outset that it is not the role of this Employment Appeal Tribunal to express any view as to the merits of either side of that debate (which we shall refer to as the “transgender debate”); its role is simply to determine whether, in reaching the conclusion that it did, the Tribunal erred in law. Our judgment should not therefore be read as providing support for or diminishing the views of either side in that debate.
In taking that approach, we do not in any way seek to ignore or downplay the difficulties faced by trans persons seeking merely to live their lives peacefully in the gender with which they identify, irrespective of their natal sex. The regrettable reality for many trans persons, however, is that something which most take for granted - the sense of self and autonomy in identity – is under constant challenge and attack.
[There was then a quotation from the Equal Treatment Bench Book] The vulnerability of many trans persons is something we bear very much in mind. “

As you were, I was reading the wrong document...

usernameinserthere · 10/12/2025 12:25

alsoFanOfNaomi · 10/12/2025 09:27

Has anyone checked his other recent judgements yet?

Not yet but that would be fascinating read through

TheAutumnCrow · 10/12/2025 12:26

MarieDeGournay · 10/12/2025 10:57

Re TiM's believing, or not, that they are actually biological women: I noticed a shift over the past years, they started out with hardline TWAW: transwomen are women just like any other women and how dare you suggest that TWs are in any way different from all other women, that's transphobic.

Possibly because out there in the wider public nobody really believed that TWAW, there was a shift towards, well of course everybody knows you can't change sex, what a silly idea, all we are saying is that we have changed our gender ID to reflect our true inner spirit, and we now present as women, and demand to be accepted as women on that basis - the 'because we say so' basis.

There is even a trend for TiM's to have beards etc, on the basis that they are women because they say so, they are not obliged to change their bodily appearance to prove it - 'we don't owe you femininity'.

I think DrU is unusual these days in claiming that he has somehow become biologically female.
The fact that he is a doctor, and is prepared to stand up in court and make such an extraordinary and easily refuted statement is incredible
The fact that a judge still finds him a credible and reliable witness is also incredible, and worrying.

I've noted before that all the witnesses the judge found 'credible and reliable' are people who went along with 'Beth's' proclaimed ID.

Yes, it’s all very India Willoughby clap-back stylee.

(And IMO immature and a lot bit stark raving bonkers.)

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 10/12/2025 12:26

Coffeeandcataddict · 10/12/2025 12:15

Show quote history

Which works until the woman holds aloft her magic sword and shouts 'I invoke my article 8 rights', and writes something down with 'Formal Complaint' in the title.

Then she and the man involved have to immediately be provided with separate provision or it's harassment. If Harvie is going with this odd rule that the judgment seems to have invented out of thin air, he can't have missed this part.

If a woman objects, there still have to be single sex and mixed sex provisions.

RoyalCorgi · 10/12/2025 12:28

This is what Gillian Philip wrote back in January about how Judge Kemp approached her case. It's not good. He seems to have a pattern of dismissing women's emotional distress as fake or exaggerated.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #57
NebulousSupportPostcard · 10/12/2025 12:28

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 10/12/2025 09:58

Another appeal relevant point; the trans advocacy group and information were accepted and thanked without further unpacking. The women's advocacy group were severely treated in the judgment and called too biased and focused on one agenda to be objectively relevant.

This cannot be true for one group and not the other. Obviously.

It is, as a legal professional said, a complete dog's breakfast. But the misquoting and reframing of law to change the meaning, and the quotes that never actually appeared in a judgment at all, and inventing entire new processes and criteria....

it's mindblowingly bad.

Show quote history

I wonder of this is another clue that AI was misused. There was a lot of online discussion on MF's testimony. I'm not sure if or where Vic Valentine's statement was posted, and an AI bot couldnt have drawn on anything like the volume of discussion to provide a meaningful comparison.

GoldThumb · 10/12/2025 12:28

OhBuggerandArse · 10/12/2025 09:13

Maya Forstater on the 'quote' that doesn't actually appear in her judgement. Raising issues about the potential use of ChatGPT - that would certainly explain some of the length and rambliness, as well as the possible AI hallucinations. https://x.com/MForstater/status/1998680325052850388?s=20

Bloody hell 🤯

SondGPT 🙈

MyAmpleSheep · 10/12/2025 12:29

Poms · 10/12/2025 12:09

Sorry if this has already been answered, I’m struggling to keep up with the thread.

Long term, could this end up being to our advantage? If Sandie wins in a higher tier court would it then set legal precedent. Whereas, a full win at this level wouldn’t do so?

Yes. There’s one intelligent and well informed poster on Trans Reddit UK <waves> who recognizes this and Kelly are weak decisions likely to be overturned on appeal but welcomes them as delaying tactics until the ECHR opines and the government is forced to change the law.

obviously we disagree about the latter, but I think the smart money on both sides agrees the former.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 10/12/2025 12:30

SondBoswellToday

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 10/12/2025 12:31

Just out of interest, in this gatekeeping rule that this judgment has come up with that doesn't seem to be in the SCJ and appears to be new and entirely from the panel -

would a man with a trans identity find it less upsetting to be able to use women's facilities until the moment a woman invokes her right to single sex provision and then be told he has to immediately leave, and that they both now must have separate arrangements (single sex and mixed sex) - which obviously outs both of them and is going to involve difficult and uncomfortable conversations for all - in essence that his access in every use is always entirely conditional on the consent of all women present and could be revoked at any moment -

or less upsetting that the single sex and mixed sex provisions were available anyway and the man and women who don't mind mixed sex provisions just used that one anyway, secure that there would never be any issues involved.

It's the same end point; just a more complicated, uncomfortable and dramatic path to get there. Which seems pointless for all really, and that's before you start looking at the issues around indirect and direct discrimination involved.

usernameinserthere · 10/12/2025 12:31

DrRevProfCriticalConditionETC · 10/12/2025 10:04

I'd like to hear Charlotte Elves on this so-called 'judgment'. I think 'bung it all in AI and sit back' is a contender for The Sixth Worst Option.

That’s an official minimum level ‘Eleventh worst option’.

Keeptoiletssafe · 10/12/2025 12:32

We need Mrs Merton to ask:
What is it about mixed sex, private, sound resistant, lots of places to hide cameras in, toilet design that is so attractive to men?

Think about designing out all the health and safety risk factors Mr Harvie. Scottish Parliament should be well aware!

alsoFanOfNaomi · 10/12/2025 12:35

(I've given up checking all the quotes but I hope SP's legal team have someone doing so!)

GoldThumb · 10/12/2025 12:36

thelongestwayhome · 10/12/2025 11:39

There appears to be another phantom quote in the judgement. Taken from the Lee v. Ashers Bakers case. Rushing out the door. Will link later.

Very very strange situation .

I expect someone will now be sitting down and looking up each and every quote cited in this judgement.

I wonder how many errors there’ll be?

Talkinpeace · 10/12/2025 12:38

WingsOverScotland is doing exactly that live on Twitter
and its getting messier by the minute.

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 10/12/2025 12:39

Well in the SNP's favour, after months of appalling publicity and the world with their jaw on the floor at how appallingly Fife had and were behaving and had handled this situation....

that the judgment basically says nothing more about all that but 'bit incompetent but whatevs' has been completely buried beneath the increasingly obvious and serious legal errors.

The bad PR has shifted.

GoldThumb · 10/12/2025 12:41

Talkinpeace · 10/12/2025 12:38

WingsOverScotland is doing exactly that live on Twitter
and its getting messier by the minute.

off to Twitter I go…

DameWishalot · 10/12/2025 12:44

GoldThumb · 10/12/2025 12:41

off to Twitter I go…

Show quote history

They should do a couple of his other judgements too - it would be interesting to see if he was particularly motivated to falsify quotations in this case, or makes a habit of it.

ProfessorBinturong · 10/12/2025 12:51

CohensDiamondTeeth · 09/12/2025 23:19

Sorry to quote myself but actually I wonder even about the "true believers".

I've read here that some trans identified men who have suffered with dementia in later years have been very distressed and confused by their feminised bodies.

So it makes me wonder if true belief that one has actually changed sex is more a fervent wish, or something learned by rote from the TRA handbook and a conscious shutting off of any internal questioning of the meaning of that phrase, both repeated until it almost becomes true for the individual.

Regardless, I still don't think Upton is one of the "true believers".

Show quote history

Yes, there have been reported cases of this.

However, anyone old enough to have developed advanced dementia will almost certainly have transitioned before the current decade of madness. Those who had surgery will have done so back when extensive therapy was a condition of treatment and surgeons would only operate if people confirmed they understood the reality that they would be changing physical appearance but not changing sex. How this will carry over to those brainwashed as children, we won't know for quite some time.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 10/12/2025 12:52

Judge Kemp seems to have a twitter account https://x.com/sandykemp54
I can't decide whether I think he used the 3 hour embargo to head for the airport for a long holiday, and/or whether he is wincing at every new tweet about his AI horrors.

Sandy Kemp (@sandykemp54) on X

Solicitor Advocate & Employment Lawyer. All views are my own

https://x.com/sandykemp54

WeMeetInFairIthilien · 10/12/2025 12:54

NebulousSupportPostcard · 10/12/2025 12:52

Judge Kemp seems to have a twitter account https://x.com/sandykemp54
I can't decide whether I think he used the 3 hour embargo to head for the airport for a long holiday, and/or whether he is wincing at every new tweet about his AI horrors.

Edited

Just tried clicking on that - says the account doesn't exist?

NebulousSadTimes · 10/12/2025 12:58

WeMeetInFairIthilien · 10/12/2025 12:54

Just tried clicking on that - says the account doesn't exist?

Show quote history

It works for me. The last activity was in 2015.

Shortshriftandlethal · 10/12/2025 13:00

NebulousSadTimes · 10/12/2025 12:58

It works for me. The last activity was in 2015.

Show quote history

Yes, and one of the suggested links is to the 'Trans Safety Network'.

WeMeetInFairIthilien · 10/12/2025 13:01

Shortshriftandlethal · 10/12/2025 13:00

Yes, and one of the suggested links is to the 'Trans Safety Network'.

Show quote history

You don't say...

I still can't see it, but that may just be me.

Igneococcus · 10/12/2025 13:03

Did he not realize the amount of interest this case generated and that this judgement would be gone through word by word?
How much of a fool is this man?

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

Join Mumsnet Log In
This thread is not accepting new messages.