"Supporting trans colleagues through this difficult time."

[StopTheHyperbole]

So I've NC for this, I'm a fairly regular poster on this board, but I've been pushed to start this thread as I am just in despair at the hyperbolic statements certain people at my place of work are spouting. Ugh!!!!

Anyway, so, I work in the public sector, there was a big gathering of opinions on the workplace, all invited to chat, round tables, discussions etc. Key questions being: what can we do to improve? How do we do things well? What do you think about our organisation? Etc. It's a yearly thing that's gone on for at least 20 years.

One of the colleagues on another table (everyone asked to write down then summarise discussions) said the company could "do more to help support trans colleagues during this extremely difficult time." Silence round the room and then when asked to clarify, they said "due to the supreme court decision."

I had to physically stop myself from sighing out loud as I was right in the eye line of the person who said this. A young, fairly grumpy they/them (actual female though) from a different team. It's just such utter UTTER bullshit. No one challenged this view, a few people NODDED!!! ARGH, it's just so frustrating.

What difficult time? Nothing is difficult??? The court decision just clarified equality law, why the need for this hyperbole? Nobody is banned from anything, this over-dramatic language about a law being clarified to ensure that single sex spaces are respected in certain circumstances is just...nuts.

Anyway I'm venting, but it worries me it's so prevalent at my work, when we should be neutral to activist causes (as a public sector organisation) and it clearly isn't the case. I wish I'd been braver in challenging this arrogant, grumpy young person but I didn't. And I slightly hate myself for it, but I have kids, mortgage and bills to pay. I just can't rock the boat. HR and the internal equality team are very much on board with it all unfortunately.

I would be interested to hear about why the trans-gender community did not ask women for their consent to enter their spaces first.

Why is the burden on indvidiual women to demonstrate trauma, look at the crime statistics on violence agains women and you will find that

a) over 90% is caused by men
b) for sexual purposes
c) in private spaces (including the home).

Women have to constantly risk assess for their safety everytime they are alone in a room with a man. If a trans-woman fails to understand that then that is proof they are not actually a woman in a mans body.

Yes, and social and family relationships as well.

The fact women are saying they want single sex spaces is enough. I’m sure you’d be very interested to hear about women’s trauma but I’m not contributing to your RSI and potential blindness. Women are entitled to single sex spaces.

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/72481d8c-e632-42da-88b0-80aa3ceaf8d1/gif#8MpBItXL.copy

No trauma here but when young and gorgeous I was persistently leered at and hassled by men. Single sex spaces were a relief.

Now I’m older that’s not an issue but find it uncomfortable and embarrassing having men in the loo. So for me it’s just …no. And if this upsets some men I really really find that I simply don’t care.

Some of us are losing our oestrogen and with it our lovey dovey feelings. Sorry not sorry,

but what meaningful support can a workplace be expected to offer post Supreme Court judgment? Men of a certain kind want the forced validation by women and the unsupervised access to women and girls being vulnerable in private spaces. Just because the law has reminded them that it’s actually always been a no, and humans can’t change sex. The support for anyone who can’t accept that must be professional mental health support and not something a well meaning group of colleagues should be messing about with.
The only support from an employer (I guess) would be more like sorry we as an employer have enabled your entitled behaviour in the changing rooms and toilets (if they did), but here’s a reminder of what the SC said with our apologies because we were so sexist and spineless we let you do this to your female colleagues. Then a massive apology to the female colleagues. But few to no employer is going to admit their own prejudices in this way- with years of Stonelaw training behind them- but it’s very sad to hear that they are actually doubling down.

Not force people back into an office five days a week when the job can be done (probably better) as hybrid. Easier for those born male who now have to use different toilets in the workplace if it is fewer days a week.

I HAVE been excluded from using the facilities of my choice because I won't share toilets or changing spaces with men. Hopefully you had the basic human decency to have some sympathy for me too, or do you only do himpathy.

Lanyards, pronouns etc are a cheap and easy way to claim to be inclusive without actually making much effort

Farr more difficult and expensive to actually make reasonable adjustments for people with disabilities etc And look how hard women fought for equal pay etv

Exactly. And let's remember Dr Upton's decision that Nurse Peggie's reactions weren't valid and that one in three women will suffer violence or sexual abuse during their lifetime. Stop and think about that for as long as it take you to realise that that sort of risk means that it's simple self-preservation not to want to share a space where you are vulnerable with someone who is almost certainly bigger and stronger than you are.

Maybe the OP could try thinking about this a different way and accept that my women's legal rights don't depend on convincing anyone that they deserve to have them, and that if they were being 'kind' they'd put women feeling safe ahead of them 'validating themselves.'

It did go without saying because you didn't say that. Didn't it occur to you that talking about experiences that had made you feel threatened and unsafe would bring back painful memories? Or does your so-called wish to understand overrule that?

It really is simple. Women have a legal right to same sex toilets and changing facilities. A woman is now legally defined by biological sex. We don't have to justify anything to anyone.

Workplaces are required by law to offer either entirely enclosed loos and wash basins or single sex toilets and changing rooms. There is complete clarity around this.

I see no problem in both ensuring that appropriate provision is used correctly and providing support for anyone upset by this.

In this situation I would be happy that I have access to single sex provision. Other’s receiving support for upset relating to this doesn’t impact me at all.

The point of it is to signal that the organisation remains captured by the ideology of transgenderism.

"himpathy" 😂

Brilliant

For years we have been told we have to accept TWAW and no debate. Now that we are saying you just have to obey the law (surely a no-debate situation?) we are told we have to justify our discomfort with men in our spaces. NO.

I agree with this.

Rather than ask women to disclose past experiences or justify their preferences, this poster needs to recognise that the law in England deems excluding males from female loos to be proportionate. The factors underpinning this are dignity, privacy and safety.

Not all women experience compromise of their dignity, privacy and safety from sharing loos with males. Some do, the law considers this reasonable - so all males need to be excluded.

So much more could be achieved for trans people if advocates and activists directed their energy at finding solutions that can co-exist with single sex provision. This does mean letting go of the validating function that makes using female only provision serves, but would fulfil their concerns that trans people ‘just wanna pee’.

Me too, I’d have probably said ‘Fuck that’ and been marched from the building!

I think it’s because so many older women have been eased out to do other things that this nonsense get to run amok in corporates. They are full of youngsters and older men.

Alas i can't take credit for it - it was coined by a philosopher called Kate Manne. But I do use it where relevant because it so brilliantly captures what happens to almost any news story involving men and women. The audience, including many women, tend to automatically see the story from the man's point of view.

"Sorry, I'm snowed under with actual work" would be my response here.
FFS

Perhaps if you were excluded from being able to use the necessary public facilities of your choice as everyone else has you might appreciate the discriminatory nature of the outcome I don’t use female spaces because they are my choice out of all of the available spaces. I use them because I am female and they are the only ones available to me. It’s not a choice. Females use one set of facilities. Males use another. And if I did have a hankering to use the men’s, it wouldn’t be discrimination against me that I wouldn’t be allowed to. I don’t suddenly become the recipient of extra ‘rights’ just because it suits me.

Just because it's been deemed by the courts as a more practical outcome doesn't mean there isn't any collateral damage, compromise of rights or hurt involved It’s not a more practical outcome. It’s the only possible outcome. And there’s no compromise of rights either. Men have never had a right to go wandering into women’s single sex spaces. They’ve taken liberties and some women have gone along with it and pretended that they believed they were women. But while we’re talking about compromising rights, where was your concern for women’s compromised rights when they couldn’t use facilities due to their trauma, or their religion, or just because they didn’t want to share with men? And these were actual rights, not just ‘rights’ that they created out of thin air and decided everyone had to abide by.

I am confused by the they/thems NB people. If its about male and female toilets where do they think they should be?

I am confused by your question. They should use the facility designated for their sex - like everybody else.

No, but it's an interesting question. We know they should use the ladies or gents, but where do they think they should go?

Some want the option to go whwerever they fancy on a particular day. Female NBs will most likely carry on using the female loos.