"Supporting trans colleagues through this difficult time."

[StopTheHyperbole]

So I've NC for this, I'm a fairly regular poster on this board, but I've been pushed to start this thread as I am just in despair at the hyperbolic statements certain people at my place of work are spouting. Ugh!!!!

Anyway, so, I work in the public sector, there was a big gathering of opinions on the workplace, all invited to chat, round tables, discussions etc. Key questions being: what can we do to improve? How do we do things well? What do you think about our organisation? Etc. It's a yearly thing that's gone on for at least 20 years.

One of the colleagues on another table (everyone asked to write down then summarise discussions) said the company could "do more to help support trans colleagues during this extremely difficult time." Silence round the room and then when asked to clarify, they said "due to the supreme court decision."

I had to physically stop myself from sighing out loud as I was right in the eye line of the person who said this. A young, fairly grumpy they/them (actual female though) from a different team. It's just such utter UTTER bullshit. No one challenged this view, a few people NODDED!!! ARGH, it's just so frustrating.

What difficult time? Nothing is difficult??? The court decision just clarified equality law, why the need for this hyperbole? Nobody is banned from anything, this over-dramatic language about a law being clarified to ensure that single sex spaces are respected in certain circumstances is just...nuts.

Anyway I'm venting, but it worries me it's so prevalent at my work, when we should be neutral to activist causes (as a public sector organisation) and it clearly isn't the case. I wish I'd been braver in challenging this arrogant, grumpy young person but I didn't. And I slightly hate myself for it, but I have kids, mortgage and bills to pay. I just can't rock the boat. HR and the internal equality team are very much on board with it all unfortunately.

Did ‘they’ have blue hair and nose piercings? (Why do they do wacky coloured hair and piercings?)

In fairness I do think the assurances given to young female-identifying-males that they could actually change sex and/or invade women’s spaces have resulted in some fairly disturbed & unhappy young people, often with complex mental health needs, having completely unrealistic expectations. (Their behaviour may be deeply unpleasant, but they’re still disturbed & vulnerable & young, & the unpleasantness often results from the delusions that have been wilfully encouraged by older people who should have known better.)

So yes, some probably do need to be constructively supported in accepting reality & the way in which women’s rights necessarily affect their own preferences. But of course that’s not what the speaker envisaged at all by ‘support’.

Others of course are just misogynistic & entitled, & find this ‘difficult’ in the way that abusers always do find it ‘difficult’ if a woman dares to stand up for herself instead of just mutely accepting whatever oppression or indignity or violence a man chooses to dish out. The men who kill their daughters for failing to adhere to restrictive social norms (see recent news), & the violent men who kill partners who try to leave them, are manifestations of exactly this. ‘Difficult’ 🤢.

That is ridiculous and the HR people need 1) to get professional legal advice on this particular issue, 2) to get some proper training. Do they never go through a disciplinary or capability process with a black employee? With a pregnant employee? If so, they are not fit to provide HR advice.

Males should never have been allowed into female spaces in the first place. Stonewall and Gendered Intelligence have a lot to answer for

Exactly this. When did that happen? I'm only middle aged, but I wouldn't have ever expected to bring my "whole self" to my first professional job. All that belonged in the office environment was the skills I needed to do my job well. I'm much more sociable at work, much quieter at home. I wear a suit to the office and gym wear at home. Etc etc. Work me and home me are not the same and shouldn't be!

There's a happy medium to strike. It's good I can request reasonable adjustments to meet needs arising from a disability that I wouldn't have been able to admit to and keep my job back in the mist of time. But it's not ok when people can't maintain an appropriate boundary between work and home life.

I don't know if I'd have had the nerve to do this in my previous workplace (and I'm retired now) but I'd like to have said something along the lines of, 'Maybe men could make some suggestions about what they could do to ensure all their male colleagues feel welcome in their spaces?'

No wonder productivity is so low if this is what public sector management is doing to avoid actual work. They need to spend less time weeping and wailing about entitled demands being refused to.get out of working and more time doing their job.

Makes me very glad I’m self employed and most clients are over 40 sensible types. Not sure I could hide my eye rolls.

Its not 2018 any more love.

Just stop with the faux naivety (unless you actually are this naive, in which case reading some of the many many threads on this forum and some second wave feminism may prove educational).

Why don't people like Emily ever have any sympathy for women who don't want men in their toilets and changing rooms (and are vilified, hounded and abused for saying so)?

Why is it only the men who are worthy of sympathy or 'love and treats' or whatever?

Are they all angry at their mummy or something? Its so tedious.

I have a friend who keeps referring to the 'anti trans ruling'. She has a trans child (mid 20s) so perhaps that is why she's seizedon that interpretation, but she has been a therapist and worked with vulnerable women for years. I just don't understand why an otherwise intelligent and compassionate woman could throw other women to the wolves. Its making me avoid her.

Please, Emily; that's such a silly thing to say. You're just flailing now.

The faux naivete is very unconvincing, Emily. I'm sure you know full well that the urinals aren't the issue; the biological men are.

I don't have urinals in my toilets at home, that is true. What I also don't have is men whom I don't know using those toilets.

It's mad isn't it @AstonScrapingsNameChange ? This colleague is a full on zealot about this stuff, she is actually quite unhinged. It's all enabled as well.

I find it so frustrating when (for want of a better description) these handmaidens will just happily throw us all under the bus. I want to say to them: have some respect for your sex class, understand how deeply the patriarchy is ingrained and how misogyny runs underneath everything. Stop contributing to it. The men have won, no need to rub salt in the wound.

Sorry, I'm sounding particularly upset today but another incident has happened that I can't reveal, but put it this way, I'm avoiding the Christmas night out and am just so sick of this shit.

I don't use the necessary public facilities of my choice, I use the ones appropriate for my sex - as everybody else does except a few 'stunning and brave' people who unfalsifiably say they have an innate feeling of being the opposite sex. And the SC judgement was and remains an example of beautiful clarity. Unless you want pregnant transmen denied maternity leave, pay and care? (Which would be one result of saying sex meant 'legal' sex.)

That old chestnut, domestic facilities are unisex and don't have urinals. Domestic houses do not have 1000s of people using the loos every day either - which is the point of single sex PUBLIC facilities.

I live in a captured city. I am very careful what I say outside the pub I frequent (and fairly careful there). Some of the things I do are run by transfolk and the city itself is responsible for advice to other bodies in other cities and towns re 'trans inclusion'. I want to keep on doing what I do so I don't say anything. I doubt any other woman would blame me for this.

Unless, of course, you're Sandie Peggie or the Darlington Nurses. They have also been through 'difficult' times, yet I somehow suspect that no one in the NHS is talking about how they could learn from the way they and other gender realistic people have been monstered and penalised.

I'm fed up with being expected to be nice to people who are all upset-i-kins because they've had to give back the rights they took illegally. No one was nice to us while they were stealing them so why am I expected to be concerned for them?

"Perhaps if you were excluded from being able to use the necessary public facilities of your choice as everyone else has you might appreciate the discriminatory nature of the outcome."

I am joining in on this to point out the fucking glaringly obvious failure in this sentence.

People do not have the 'choice' of public facilities. People use the facility indicated for their sex.

The 'discriminatory' nature of the outcome is a one of legitimate discrimination. That is discrimination allowed under law for safeguarding needs such as this.

Not all discrimination is bad. Sometimes it has a purpose to achieve a positive outcome for those who need that outcome.

Indeed this lovely, caring sharing attitude completely over looks the women who's 'choice' of facilities is single sex. Where are they supposed to go? Why does no-one care that they are having their choice of necessary public facilities denied to them? I can't understand why so many women are A OK with women being denied choice as long as the men are all catered for.

What does that have to do with males being obliged to stay out of female-only facilities? I don't understand the parallel you're making. Care to explain?

I’d be really interested to hear some personal stories from women who have felt uncomfortable or threatened by a trans person in a women’s toilet. I really struggle to understand why so many people are so upset it but maybe if I could understand some specific cases it would help.

Be aware of the fact you are asking women to recall experiences of trauma for your benefit

Many may not wish to do that

"Tell me about your sexual assault in a confined space so I can judge whether your objections to men in women's single sex spaces are justified or not"

It’s not about feelings, women are at higher risk in mixed sex changing rooms and toilets: https://fairplayforwomen.com/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger/

You want to hear of women’s experiences of feeling uncomfortable or being threatened by gender non conforming males in a confined space such as a toilet? Really?!