Womens sauna is for 'those who identify as women'

[Pigriver]

Hi everyone,
I have spent the last year or so quietly reading and can only discuss these issues IRL with a few select friends as many are flag flying allies.
A local community enterprise has opened a community sauna with a range of sessions. Mainly mixed sessions with special session options of
*Unclothed
*Trans friendly
*Female (for anyone who identifies as female)

But no actual female only.

I would like to contact them but it will clearly 'out' me as GC in a community I work and live in and have friends and acquaintances that may have connection with this community group. I hate that speaking out about a matter that is important for me could be social and career suicide. Options to contact at the moment seems to be an online contact form that needs my name and email.
So WWYD?

Well I won't be going, I don't want to see penis and testicles when I go for an unclothed women only sauna and yes I would be kicking up a stink.

Make a new Gmail account and use a different name.

It's not 2022 any more. Raise your concerns and you'll likely find many others agree with you.

Out them to the press? They're becoming increasingly interested and reporting on men demanding access to undressed women - including by subterfuge.

Honestly? I'd pick my battles and only complain if trans-identifying men were actually using the female-only sessions.

Others may feel differently but this is a very difficult situation unless you have ovaries of steel and not everyone does.

Is this in the UK?

Whenever I have been in a sauna in northern Europe they have been nude and strictly sex-segregated. If your community sauna doesn't have sex segregation then what on earth does trans friendly mean in this context?

Might be too late then, personally I'd want clarification before i showed up and be definite I'd only attend if it was sexed based.

Yes, do this.

Could you contact them in the guise of friendly concern that not offering something for women when they are offering trans, mixed, and presumably men's sessions, might be in contravention of the Equality Act as clarified by the Supreme Court, which specifies that "woman" means sex, not gender. ie biological women.

Just say you're concerned that they might be opening themselves up to an expensive legal challenge. Then you appear as an ally, but pointing out the law.

I think the way to go is offer a range of sessions for different clientele, that's actual inclusion, but inclusion, legally, means women too. Even if men get pouty about it.

I would be pointing out to them, anonymously, that no, they can't advertise 'identifying as' for female, legal discrimination is sex class based. Either it's for women, or it's not. And if they want some generosity around that, and not to get legally taken to the cleaners, the men need to accept letting women have something too.

I mean, you should really expect people not to be utter bastards about women in the first place, but apparently it takes legal threats for people not to be misogynist fuckwits these days. And anonymisation not for said fuckwits to then try burning the witch.

Although I'll bet they're busily waiting for Godot the EHCR doctored and watered down and activist controlled guidance (which won't be compatible with the law and you can still take them to the cleaners.)

If you want to put them on here then maybe someone else local can attend and email them?

Thanks all. I think the easiest thing to do would be to use an old email that doesn't identify me and politely voice concerns.

Unfortunately I'm not willing to go to a women's session and just hope there are no TIM as then it would be very uncomfortable to voice my concerns without being confrontational and sounding like a bigot.

I also don't want to go in all guns blazing as the site they use is actually an amazing community resource but in trying to be inclusive has actually excluded a lot of customers.

I don't hate trans folk but I also don't want to share a sauna with a penis.

To the person who said 'speak out it's not 2022' I wish. One friend has removed Harry Potter from her child's bookshelf and another has a trans child. My BFF is gay with a NB child and every other combination of letters between them. I love them all and we have lots in common but on this issues we are poles apart.

The question that usually gives reasonable people pause is 'please could you direct me to your inclusive provision for women who cannot access a mixed sex space?'

With the obvious question being if this is explained that women either pretend men are women or are excluded 'so you're not inclusive of women with trauma, cultural needs, etc? And exclude women who cannot be undressed with biological men?'

And then ask why this is. Because the answer is 'because men shout and pout and threaten (and so sadly do their horrible handmaidens) when women are given some crumbs of provision'. Even when it does not affect those men in any way.

Explaining that without looking an utter arse is impossible.

Do you live in an area that still has a local paper?

If so you could check that they will print a letter that is annonymous (but may mean they need to know who you are) in which you could set out your concerns.

Not just the Supreme Court ruling and that it isn't legal to advertise as they have (as mentioned by PP) and you cant understand why everyone else is catered for but (biological) women aren't.

Especially as many women whatever the culture, age or beliefs feel safer and more comfortable in biological women only sessions, as permitted under the EA.

That way you could find out if others are concerned.

Assuming any one is interested in going to a sauna.

Also I've just checked back and they don't have a men's session....
What about the poor men who don't want to uncomfortably look away from boobs. Just give us a range of single sex and mixed sessions.
The only non clothed sessions are 'mixed gender'

Poor transmen - what about their need to be affirmed as men? No-one seems to care about that.
I suggest you contact them and explain that your female Muslim friend is keen to attend but believes that it is contrary to her religion to be there in the presence of biological men. What are her options? Hopefully you have a female Muslim friend.

This was exactly the line I have taken. I actually have many female Muslim friends. These are the only friends I can share my concerns with. We live in a very multicultural areas so it's a prevalent issue.
I have emailed and will report back with the response. I also queried a men's only session.

They’ve got the words wrong. Female and male are sex, woman and man are gender. So I’d ask for clarification and ask if there are any single sex sessions.

Is this Camberwell? I was looking at attending the sauna, but realised there was no clear provision for women-only sessions. So I won’t go. I enjoy saunas/ baths more in countries where the norm is single SEX and nude, at any rate.

No, northern industrial city

I can't agree that woman and man are gender categories. Can you explain what you mean by gender?

Is this the case?

I've always considered it the other way round.

ie male or female (gender)

and

man or woman (sex)

Or is each pair of terms commonly used interchangeably (and confusingly) for both sex and gender?

there is a current social media "reflective conversation" being discussed on multiple platforms: the bean soup theory. It’s when people respond to posts/events/etc that they are not the audience for and find a way to make it about themselves.
If this is a new sauna that has opened, and has purposefully designed and worded their provision as being open to mixed sex and multi gender sessions then maybe it's not the one for you? If you enquire about single sex sessions and they dont offer them, you could use another sauna?

you could use another sauna?

mmhmm… no.

People who are discriminated against don’t get told if they don’t like it to take their custom elsewhere. “Don’t like that our hotel doesn’t accept black people? So sad. You’re free to go to another hotel. Don’t like that our inclusive swimming pool doesn’t let gay people in? That not a problem, you can just find a different place to swim”. Or find a different place to work, that doesn’t discriminate against pregnant women, or Jews, or Hindus. No. That’s not how the law works.