Womens sauna is for 'those who identify as women'

[Pigriver]

Hi everyone,
I have spent the last year or so quietly reading and can only discuss these issues IRL with a few select friends as many are flag flying allies.
A local community enterprise has opened a community sauna with a range of sessions. Mainly mixed sessions with special session options of
*Unclothed
*Trans friendly
*Female (for anyone who identifies as female)

But no actual female only.

I would like to contact them but it will clearly 'out' me as GC in a community I work and live in and have friends and acquaintances that may have connection with this community group. I hate that speaking out about a matter that is important for me could be social and career suicide. Options to contact at the moment seems to be an online contact form that needs my name and email.
So WWYD?

they arent preventing you from using it, or anyone from using it.
none of your examples apply

a mixed gender gym is under no obligation to provide bespoke single sex gym sessions or areas, if they are clearly advertised as a mixed space. If people want a segregated gym space they can use other providers who have these

It’s not even a mixed gender sauna though is it
Theres no session for
men or those who identify as men !!

If the sauna is exclusive to the trans community they can operate legally
If the service is offered to others then they cannot exclude non trans people to the benefit of trans people

If therefore
women have a sauna session they cannot legally allow men in. Therefore anyone who identifies as a women must actually be a biological women not a man

Either they change their sessions and signs to say trans ….
Or they have to keep the women’s sessions to women only not transwomen.

They should also have a men’s only session, they are discriminating against men aswell

Who ever started this sauna really haven’t got a clue !

a mixed gender gym is under no obligation to provide bespoke single sex gym sessions or areas, if they are clearly advertised as a mixed space.

That's true. But but they cannot hold a women+'trans women' service. We believe that is unlawfully discriminatory in various ways. Legal action against (among others) The Corporation of the City of London should make this clear.

That is Female (for anyone who identifies as female) is discriminatory, just as "no blacks" is, and "if you don't like it go somewhere else" does not make it legal.

Yes, this is the case. Male and female are biological sex categories.

the idea of psycho-social gender is about performing womanhood, ‘what it is to be a woman (in society)’ likewise ‘what it is to be a man’, relating to social ideas of feminine and masculine behaviour.

That is why forms etc that muddle male and female with identity or choice make no sense, as these are immutable sex classes.

There is a lot of confusion about though, including Americans and biologists commonly using gender to mean sex, out of prudishness and because until recently there was no difference in everyday language, respectively.

OP are you part of a women's group like WRN? It might be worth getting in touch with them and asking if they can help you out. They can contact the business directly and find out if there are female only sessions and inform the business that one of their members is concerned about the breach of the Supreme Court ruling by not having female only sessions etc.
They may also be willing to put something in the local and national press about businesses that continue to flout the SC ruling.

It's worth asking them, rather than putting yourself directly in the firing line.

I think Sex Matters has a template for these kinds of issues.

To add to the confusion, the decision in FWS said clearly (paragraph 97) that the words gender and sex were used in law and in the judgment interchangeably.

A dilemma! But the 'everyone who identifies as female ' one indirectly discriminates against men who are not trans identified, so they may be in trouble with that from the get go.

What's interesting is one of the groups is "Trans friendly" which effectively accepts that not all sessions would be trans friendly.

Which doesn't mean other users are transphobic, but that being told you have to accept trans is a negative impact on others who lose their rights by having it inflicted on them.

(But agree with others that none of the session listed would be or are legal.)

I don't know who came up with this selection of massively EA2010 breaching set of groups but they are either stupid or need an urgent conversation with their GP about their medication.

I assumed Brighton

The special sauna sessions are not the only ones. The rest of the time, it’s probably mixed and clothed. So no boobs, no penises.
Just people in swimsuits sitting on towels.

You will look a fool for complaining because you don’t have to pick one of the special sessions, you can just not go to any of them, and still use the sauna.

Can't you just speak to them ? If they have a trans friendly session they should be able to provide a women only session

Having lived in different countries, Britain is very separatist sexually but in Scandinavian countries everyone gets in the sauna naked whatever gender /sex. However I'm very aware that some aren't as liberal and want separate spaces which should be accommodated if they are providing alternative spaces for other groups

I’ve been to many saunas and spas in Germany and they are mixed sex and fully naked, nobody bats an eyelid, I do think people need to chill on these things - if we want to import leisure activities we should also import their attitudes, it’s so refreshing

Just catching up.
@SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice I would not go to a general session as I prefer to sauna without men. Just as I prefer to swim and gym at the women's only time. For me it's personal preference but for many it's due to trauma or religious reasons.
@Maddy70 I have emailed but no reply as yet. I was reticent as I'd be speaking out in a way that may hurt me professionally (and socially) as I am well know from working in the local community for over 20 years.
@gogomomo2 I don't need to chill thank you very much. It's perfectly acceptable as stated above to prefer to do certain activities without men.

So you must also prefer to swim in a pool without men? Or go to a beach without men?

Have you thought about joining a women only gym with swimming and sauna facilities?

It seems bonkers to impose your preferences on what is a mixed sex health centre.

It seems bonkers to impose your preferences on what is a mixed sex health centre.

That critique is equally applicable to people who want an "anyone who identifies as a woman" session. Are they also "bonkers" for imposing their preferences?

Yes. All “special sessions” are bonkers imho.
Instead, they should have slots for private hire so anyone who feels special can use the sauna with their equally special friends.

I don't think that's the basis of your objection to the OP. I think you're being disingenuous. Regardless -

Some of the "special sessons" are unlawful; like "anyone who identifies as a woman" sessions.

Whereas "Anyone who is actually a woman" is a lawful "special session."

It seems entirely reasonable to insist that any "special sessions", bonkers or not, should be lawful.

I don’t think your lawful argument passes the giggle test.
No one is being excluded on the basis of ethnicity, sex, religion, gender, nationality, disability or sexual orientation.
There is no requirement in law that there must be a special session for every protected characteristic.

In short, self-exclusion due to a personal preference isn’t unlawful exclusion.

No, but the term 'identifies as a woman' excludes men who do not so identify, and thus they are being indirectly discriminated against. That's the law. If it's mixed sex (and 'anyone who identifies as a woman' means it is mixed sex) then men who are not TiM cannot be excluded. The place doesn't have to provide single sex sessions, but by providing the trans inclusive sessions (2 of them, one disguised as 'women's'') they are discriminating against not trans men.

There are some legal cases pending which claim that "trans-inclusive single-sex services" (to use a convenienent shorthand) are unlawful. In a few months we'll know better what the legal position is. A first glance analysis says they're not legal. For reasons which have been discussed at great length in other threads. (You will be aware that just today the Girl Guides organization has decided on the basis of legal advice that trans identifying boys cannot lawfully be included in a girls-only organization.)

It's correct that there's no need to offer a female-only sauna session. But it would be legal to do so, and a reasonable ask, given the other special-interest sessions that are on offer. Why not? What's wrong with "women only"?

Then why bother to come on a thread where the OP is saying she has a problem with it.

She's not asking for personal counselling she is asking for input about how to complain.

If you think this why not start a thread about how everyone needs to chill out, and see if anyone agrees.

Not saying its organised but more and more threads are being made less useful and interesting because there is always so know all wanting to tell the OP they shouldn't think like they do!

No, it’s only discrimination if there is no access at all. The law doesn’t require special sessions for every protected characteristic if you offer any special sessions at all.

I think you have it backwards. The law says you can limit girl guides on the basis of sex to females only and therefore excluding trans individuals who identify with the gender of girl from girl guides is not discriminatory and therefore legal. It’s never unlawful to expand inclusion.

The sauna can lawfully offer special sessions for females only on the basis of sex and for women including trans women on the basis of gender.

OP wants the former due to personal preference.

But there is no law that requires a health centre to offer special sessions for both just like the law doesn’t require Girl Guides to run girl guide troops that include trans girls on the basis of gender as well as girl guide troops for girls on the basis of their sex. They can legally choose just one demographic to cater to.