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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #55

1000 replies

nauticant · 19/11/2025 22:05

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to: [email protected]

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 from 28 September 2025

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49
ItsCoolForCats · 02/12/2025 11:18

I think various media have been saying the decision is imminent for at least a month now. And some said it was expected by the end of November.

I have a feeling it will be tomorrow. Or maybe the Wednesday after that 🤣

murasaki · 02/12/2025 11:25

It doesn't have to be 10 am, does it?

lcakethereforeIam · 02/12/2025 11:26

I read an article from an elderly copy of the BBC wildlife mag. Squirrels had learned to drink lager from picnic litter. Trying to Google it, jic it was all a dream, I found this

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/brewdog-worlds-strongest-beer-squirrel-bottle-the-end-of-history-a7436201.html?utm_campaign=lighteradlayout

Too 😱 (be warned) to not share.

That's a lovely picture of Naomi. It's a shame she's stepping down. She must be nearly as busy as 3-jobs Devlin (the busiest woman in Belfast).

Eta sorry. So much for the warning. It's all in the picture/pitcher.

BrewDog are giving away bottles of the world's strongest beer encased in a taxidermy squirrel

The brewer has raised over £19m with a crowd-funding project - and is rewarding its most generous fans in an unusual way... 

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/brewdog-worlds-strongest-beer-squirrel-bottle-the-end-of-history-a7436201.html

MarieDeGournay · 02/12/2025 11:28

I'm not a great fan of Thomas Hardy [sorry, great fans of Thomas Hardy!] but I love this poem of his, and the long wait for The Decision brought it to mind. We long for it as wing-clipt gulls for the sea, Big Sond!!

A Week

On Monday night I closed my door,
And thought you were not as heretofore,
And little cared if we met no more.

I seemed on Tuesday night to trace
Something beyond mere commonplace
In your ideas, and heart, and face.

On Wednesday I did not opine
Your life would ever be one with mine,
Though if it were we should well combine.

On Thursday noon I liked you well,
And fondly felt that we must dwell
Not far apart, whatever befell.

On Friday it was with a thrill
In gazing towards your distant vill
I owned you were my dear one still.

I saw you wholly to my mind
On Saturday – even one who shrined
All that was best of womankind.

As wing-clipt sea-gull for the sea
On Sunday night I longed for thee,
Without whom life were waste to me!

ProfessorBinturong · 02/12/2025 11:32

Majorconcern · 02/12/2025 11:14

The Times says decision is ‘imminent’. Is that the same as ‘d’rectly’ where I live?

I hope not! I can't wait that long.

Chersfrozenface · 02/12/2025 11:38

Majorconcern · 02/12/2025 11:14

The Times says decision is ‘imminent’. Is that the same as ‘d’rectly’ where I live?

Or 'now in a minute' round my way.

NebulousProfessorSupportPostcard · 02/12/2025 11:38

Majorconcern · 02/12/2025 11:14

The Times says decision is ‘imminent’. Is that the same as ‘d’rectly’ where I live?

"Now in a minute"

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #55
murasaki · 02/12/2025 11:40

I'm getting a Prufockian 'I have measured out my life in coffee spoons' feeling waiting for these judgements.

SexRealismBeliefs · 02/12/2025 11:54

Wbeezer · 27/11/2025 18:06

I actually know Carol Potter, she is a friend of mine of longstanding. You’ve all constructed a persona for her ( based on assumptions and inflammatory newspaper articles) that I do not recognise.
There are entirely legitimate reasons why she could choose to retire this summer that you don’t know about.
You’ve all been a bit too about gleeful about the outcome, I think it is very unpleasant and not constructive at all.

For those late coming to the 'Carol's dear friend' - @Wbeezer kindly gave us a drive by scolding for being gleeful.

I suspect Carol won't be too gleeful when Naomi walks her through her decision making on harassing Sandie Peggie mid trial via a statement published to all and sundry.

Whatever persona we've constructed for Carol, I assume the deconstruction in Tribunal will unmask much.

SexRealismBeliefs · 02/12/2025 11:58

I would like Naomi to haul all these reporters into Court to question them on the definiton of imminent!

We'll soon get to the bottom of the matter.

SidewaysOtter · 02/12/2025 12:14

A spokesperson from NHS Fife said: “We note the intention to bring further legal proceedings and have referred this to our legal team.”

I should imagine they've had to instigate a "Please take a ticket and wait" system to deal with the influx of work. And put a sign on the door reading "FFS, what have you done NOW?"

The Times says decision is ‘imminent’. Is that the same as ‘d’rectly’ where I live?

I think it might be similar to 'shortly' which is what I use when I mean "At some point relatively soon, at the appropriate juncture, in the fullness of time and when I can be arsed".

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 02/12/2025 12:16

Or as my dad used to say, 'All in good time' and 'Patience is a virtue'. It was infuriating.

BorneBackCeaselesslyIntoThePas · 02/12/2025 12:23

Sir Humphrey. “At the appropriate juncture. In the fullness of time. When the moment is ripe… Nothing precipitate, of course.”

oldtiredcyclist · 02/12/2025 12:27

Did Fife really say this in their statement? They are delusional, in the words of John McEnroe - "they cannot be serious".

"In some cases, however, what began as debate has evolved into much more worrying behaviour, including a threat of physical harm and sexual violence, which has required the involvement of Police Scotland."

SexRealismBeliefs · 02/12/2025 12:37

I was on their website to find it - couldn't locate it but they had this helpful piece

https://www.nhsfife.org/news-updates/latest-news/2025/07/statement-decision-to-publish-response-to-costs-of-ongoing-employment-tribunal/

11/07/2025

Question:
A statement is sought on who made the decision to upload a public statement about legal costs of the ongoing Employment Tribunal.
Response:
Once the Employment Tribunal costs to date had been established, NHS Fife took the decision to issue a statement. This was due to the unprecedented and continued media interest and speculation relating to the costs associated with the Employment Tribunal, brought against NHS Fife by Sandie Peggie.
This decision was taken in the public interest and as part of our commitment to openness and transparency. In line with FOI legislation and best practice, all individuals who lodged an FOI enquiry associated with the costs of the Employment Tribunal will be responded to directly and within the appropriate timescales.

P.s. Carol just in case you haven't yet sought legal advice - that defence isn't going to work.

Merrilydancing · 02/12/2025 13:05

Thank you for posting the NHS statement as I missed it first time around. And also thanks for keeping posting on this as whilst I am not a regular poster, do try to keep up with all of this.

SexRealismBeliefs · 02/12/2025 13:07

For those who have forgotten all the massive clangers that Dear Friend Carol signed off on: https://archive.ph/wh9UE

The legal case brought against NHS Fife began after it commenced an internal investigation following allegations made by a member of its staff. The claimant’s case is being supported by Sex Matters, whose chief executive officer and co-founder was called as a witness by the claimant in the earlier hearing. The claimant’s barrister is also chair of Sex Matters. Other members of the organisation’s ‘advisory group’ have provided commentary to the media on a number of occasions where no reference is made to their direct involvement in the organisation. Sex Matters have been very active, making numerous statements which it would appear are aimed at steering public opinion in a way that NHS Fife as a public body clearly cannot.

  • A public charity who can share relevant statistics on this subject gave evidence in the case. You NHS Fife paid out the wazoo from taxpayers money for legal advice and had a KC paid over £100,000 to build your defence. You could sway public opinion by having rational policies, honest employees or send Carol to defend herself. Your defence was an opportunity to steer public opinion. You got it wrong. Your choice.

While NHS Fife recognises the clear public interest in the tribunal, and of scrutinising NHS Fife’s actions as a public body, it remains important to be mindful of the privacy of all those giving evidence in the case. There has been significant and very polarised debate on social media regarding the case and associated issues, throughout. In some cases, however, what began as debate has evolved into much more worrying behaviour, including a threat of physical harm and sexual violence, which has required the involvement of Police Scotland.

  • Threats were made to Naomi and the Judge. If there were additional threats to individial staff they weren't widely known. What we do know is that Sandie suffered horrific abuse and you clearly didn't give a fig about her.

As made clear during tribunal proceedings, the disciplinary process was initiated due to concerns raised about interactions with a colleague and patient care.

  • We all know the patient care stuff was made up and was found to be a fraud in the Tribunal likely by the time of the statement. So why repeat the lie to obsfucate matters? Sandie was innocent of all allegations - so why repeat the false allegations again?

During the initial phase of proceedings there were also issues and disruption with the livestream due to the significant number of people granted access. To assist the smooth running of proceedings, our legal representatives sought to limit the stream to media as a means of reducing the opportunity for further disruption and interruptions.

  • Oh we didn't like people seeing what we were up to so we just wanted the captured media to have access. Not those Mumsnetters - they are too nosy and pay attention to what we are actually saying in evidence. No open justice for us please.

NHS Fife acknowledges the Supreme Court’s ruling and other developments in this area. Work is underway across the entirety of the health board's estate (including toilets, changing and locker rooms) to identify areas where any adaptions may be required and schedule any work that may be necessary to improve facilities.

  • We are running a hospital site that allows for the sexual harassment of women and haven't resolved that. We don't need to follow the law because you know things take time.
Dancingsquirrels · 02/12/2025 13:21

Loving all the song references. Here's my incomplete effort, to the tune of "Puff the magic dragon". Perhaps someone else has the talent to finish it

Beth the pretend laydee lived by the sea
And frolicked in the changing room in a bra and big pantees
Little Isla Bumba loved that rascal Beth
Along with Carol, Kate, Maggee and don't forget Elspeth

Along came Sandie, who recognised a man
Refused to play along and .........

Alpacajigsaw · 02/12/2025 13:26

SexRealismBeliefs · 02/12/2025 11:54

For those late coming to the 'Carol's dear friend' - @Wbeezer kindly gave us a drive by scolding for being gleeful.

I suspect Carol won't be too gleeful when Naomi walks her through her decision making on harassing Sandie Peggie mid trial via a statement published to all and sundry.

Whatever persona we've constructed for Carol, I assume the deconstruction in Tribunal will unmask much.

Friend

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #55
KTheGrey · 02/12/2025 13:33

SirChenjins · 02/12/2025 09:07

It is indeed sad times for Dear Friend Carol.

I hope so much that the senior people (and the Isle of Bumble) are dragged through a process that makes SP's experience of the court system look like a walk in the park.

I also wish this and I think it may be because I am so angry about the way the institution was mobilised against a single nurse - so partly the bananarama accusation!

However, I also worry about some sort of cultural revolution when bad actors are publicly humiliated - what is the best way to deal with people who have been sucked into a world of dangerous nonsense by True Believers Of The Cult? On an institutional level?

SexRealismBeliefs · 02/12/2025 13:40

I note they've cottoned onto the fact that less is more

Their 'statement' about the legal proceedings about the statement.

02/12/2025
Question:
Comment is sought on the announcement of further legal proceedings.
Response:
A spokesperson from NHS Fife said: "We note the intention to bring further legal proceedings and have referred this to our legal team."

Majorconcern · 02/12/2025 13:46

Dancingsquirrels · 02/12/2025 13:21

Loving all the song references. Here's my incomplete effort, to the tune of "Puff the magic dragon". Perhaps someone else has the talent to finish it

Beth the pretend laydee lived by the sea
And frolicked in the changing room in a bra and big pantees
Little Isla Bumba loved that rascal Beth
Along with Carol, Kate, Maggee and don't forget Elspeth

Along came Sandie, who recognised a man
Refused to play along and .........

I always cry at the end of that song, so not keen to finish it unless we can rewrite the ending

Dancingsquirrels · 02/12/2025 13:48

Majorconcern · 02/12/2025 13:46

I always cry at the end of that song, so not keen to finish it unless we can rewrite the ending

If I had time and skill to complete it, Naomi and Sandie would definitely triumph

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 02/12/2025 13:53

Majorconcern · 02/12/2025 13:46

I always cry at the end of that song, so not keen to finish it unless we can rewrite the ending

That song was the first thing I ever heard sung by Chris de Burgh, at a campfire in County Wexford in the late sixties – the first year his grandfather's castle was open as a hotel. I think someone who knew them told my mum they needed customers, and we were among the first to go there.

(It wasn't a family castle: his grandfather had bought it in a mad moment earlier that decade. My mother taught the General how to build a dry stone wall to keep the gravel from the drive off the grass!)

MarieDeGournay · 02/12/2025 14:01

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 02/12/2025 13:53

That song was the first thing I ever heard sung by Chris de Burgh, at a campfire in County Wexford in the late sixties – the first year his grandfather's castle was open as a hotel. I think someone who knew them told my mum they needed customers, and we were among the first to go there.

(It wasn't a family castle: his grandfather had bought it in a mad moment earlier that decade. My mother taught the General how to build a dry stone wall to keep the gravel from the drive off the grass!)

I won't go so far as to say 'this post wins the internet for today' but ... Co. Wexford.. a castle... a campfire.. Chris de Burgh.. a mother teaching a general to build a dry stone wall... you have to admit, it's a tough act to follow!😁

Dancingsquirrels, your version of Puff the Magic Dragon is six lines longer than anyone else's, so well done you 😄

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