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NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #55

1000 replies

nauticant · 19/11/2025 22:05

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to: [email protected]

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 from 28 September 2025

OP posts:
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49
ProfessorRedshoeblueshoe · 02/12/2025 08:59

I think I would actually die laughing if Carol had a son called Harry

SirChenjins · 02/12/2025 09:07

It is indeed sad times for Dear Friend Carol.

I hope so much that the senior people (and the Isle of Bumble) are dragged through a process that makes SP's experience of the court system look like a walk in the park.

SeniorWranglerStanfreyPock · 02/12/2025 09:14

NebulousProfessorSupportPostcard · 01/12/2025 20:59

I think this is the link to the original (archived version).

https://archive.ph/wh9UE

Click other snapshots at top and you should find around 12 images, though these were not all new iterations, just copies people saved at various times that weekend.

Edited
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Just had another look at the infamous statement and am yet again gobsmacked as to how awful it is, even whichever watered down version this is.
Having a go at Sex Matters, Tribunal Tweets, media and anyone who dare challenge NHS Fife's version of events. Reckless indeed, very ill-advised. Can't understand why nobody said Just Don't!

junipery · 02/12/2025 09:53

Director of People and Culture is a real W1A title. And sounds like he was terrible at it, given the culture at NHS Fife. After something like this I don’t know why they can’t just say ok let’s just get rid of that role altogether and save some money.

I haven’t RTFT, can someone kindly explain the references to Carol Potter being a good friend?

ProfessorRedshoeblueshoe · 02/12/2025 09:55

junipery - someone came on the thread and said they are a good friend of Carol's. that Carol is a good person - and we are just a nasty bunch of meanies.

Peregrina · 02/12/2025 09:58

Carol Potter has mostly been an invisible woman - we haven't been able to form any sort of opinion of her, far from being meanies. Now that we find that she signed off that appalling statement, which we read in its multiple iterations, many of us have formed the opinion that she appears totally incompetent.

TheCorrsDidDreamsBetter · 02/12/2025 10:01

Alpacajigsaw · 01/12/2025 17:45

Hope photo uploads

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Does this mean she will still be part of Sex Matters, just not the chair?

MarieDeGournay · 02/12/2025 10:08

SexRealismBeliefs · Today 08:22

For you ^“We built this city on sexist roles”^

Why isn't there a 'bowing down at the feet of true genius' emoji?
Several👏👏👏👏and a 💖will have to do instead.
Thank you, it's brilliant!😄

👏to all the other fun parodies from other posters too, said she carefully in Fr Ted mode😏

TheAutumnCrow · 02/12/2025 10:12

TheCorrsDidDreamsBetter · 02/12/2025 10:01

Does this mean she will still be part of Sex Matters, just not the chair?

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I suspect she will be seeking a reasonable degree of separation to avoid any reasonable doubts about any potential conflict of interest. Given she herself has an arguable case against NHS Fife and a couple of named individuals, I think NHS Fife should be more not less worried about this development tbh.

My knowledge of conflicts of interest for, say, politics would suggest that NC could however remain an ordinary member of Sex Matters and/or on the mailing list, ie do something that lots of other people do. And of course she can remain friends with Maya, Emma etc.

I also imagine she genuinely needs to free up her time to maximise her caseload as a specialist barrister.

SexRealismBeliefs · 02/12/2025 10:34

MyrtleLion · 02/12/2025 03:31

I can see your point but the EHRC is a public body and must be independent. The TRAs would quickly accuse it of bias in our favour if it funded harassment cases for sex realistic women. It is also not a court and the only place to decide if an employee has been discriminated against, is a court of law.

Besides, we don't need another case. The law has been clarified by the Supreme Court. The Equality Act 2010 intended for sex to mean biological sex. Self ID was never lawful and men identifying as women were never permitted access to single sex facilities. The Deputy President of the Supreme Court and lead judge in FWS, Lord Patrick Hodge, said in an interview with the Times, "people had been led to believe by public authorities, among others, for the last 15 years that they had rights which they didn’t have. So I have some sympathy, quite a lot of sympathy, with the feeling that they had something taken away from them."

The GLP application for judicial review is very likely to fail because the law is settled and has been settled by the highest court in the land. No lower court is going to go against that. The only way that this is changed is if Parliament rewrites the Equality Act and there is no appetite for that.

What we are seeing is a string of employment law cases where employees with sex realist views have been badly treated by their employers because they hold these views. Most of them will win. This is not about clarifying the law, but about getting redress for harassment or dismissal. Some of the cases will be appealed and any Employment Appeal Tribunal (EAT) ruling will set a precedent that is binding on future cases.

Over the next five years we will see a dwindling of these cases because employers will finally work out that they must obey the law and will stop directly discriminating on these grounds. Because it's expensive. And ruins their reputations.

I expect to see tougher cases emerge where sex realists are indirectly discriminated against in the same way that racist employers no longer say they pay someone less because they are black but because the employee is not good enough.

I also expect to see cases where trans-identifying people take their employers to court for failing to provide gender neutral facilities. This will probably affect women who identify as men in particular because they may not be permitted to use the women's facilities.

We won't win every case. Sometimes the Bananarama defence may be true. Employees may be legitimately dismissed for expressing their beliefs in an aggressive and disrespectful manner. Imagine Glinner confronting someone trans in the workplace and calling them names - that could be a legitimate dismissal.

The EHRC is there to provide guidance on the law so that employers and service providers don't have to interpret the Equality Act for themselves. Sadly that guidance was corrupted by activists so that trans identifying people (and their employers and service providers) believed they had the right to access the opposite sex's single sex spaces. The guidance has been updated and submitted to the government who have chucked it into the long grass. It doesn't matter. The law is the law, even without the guidance.

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I agree with the majority of what you say - but I have been saying why do we not have a single TRA bringing a claim for being denied rights? Surely Dr Upton is the very model of the boy who cried wolf in this respect - he’s now changing down to his bra on his lonesome.

If he had a leg to stand on he’d sue.

They are the very definition of unwinnable cases. If they had a chance GLP would be lining them up.

murasaki · 02/12/2025 10:35

The GLP has quite enough cases that don't have a sniff of a chance!

SexRealismBeliefs · 02/12/2025 10:37

MarieDeGournay · 02/12/2025 10:08

SexRealismBeliefs · Today 08:22

For you ^“We built this city on sexist roles”^

Why isn't there a 'bowing down at the feet of true genius' emoji?
Several👏👏👏👏and a 💖will have to do instead.
Thank you, it's brilliant!😄

👏to all the other fun parodies from other posters too, said she carefully in Fr Ted mode😏

A deep bow of thanks.

I did it while sorting the kids breakfast.

I did think it might also work with ‘We built this city on sexist tropes’ or ‘We built this city on gender tropes’ but as you were the originator of the idea I stuck to your cue. You’re on the credits and will no doubt get millions in royalties. (If I’m not first sued for copyright breach!)

MarieDeGournay · 02/12/2025 10:43

SexRealismBeliefs · 02/12/2025 10:37

A deep bow of thanks.

I did it while sorting the kids breakfast.

I did think it might also work with ‘We built this city on sexist tropes’ or ‘We built this city on gender tropes’ but as you were the originator of the idea I stuck to your cue. You’re on the credits and will no doubt get millions in royalties. (If I’m not first sued for copyright breach!)

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You also parent? Is there no end to your capabilities....😁
ps thanks for the royalties!

SexRealismBeliefs · 02/12/2025 10:47

MarieDeGournay · 02/12/2025 10:43

You also parent? Is there no end to your capabilities....😁
ps thanks for the royalties!

Show quote history

Well if by parenting you mean look at Mumsnet when I should be paying deep attention to their needs - yes I parent 🤣.

God I don’t know when I last anticipated something as much as this judgement. Come on Employment Judge Alexander Kemp

SqueakyDinosaur · 02/12/2025 10:49

SexRealismBeliefs · 02/12/2025 10:34

I agree with the majority of what you say - but I have been saying why do we not have a single TRA bringing a claim for being denied rights? Surely Dr Upton is the very model of the boy who cried wolf in this respect - he’s now changing down to his bra on his lonesome.

If he had a leg to stand on he’d sue.

They are the very definition of unwinnable cases. If they had a chance GLP would be lining them up.

Show quote history

Well, there were some earlier - Taylor v Jaguar Landrover, for example. And the non-binary Haech Lockwood one has just delivered its judgment.

I do understand that some trans people in the UK are feeling very disheartened, because they had assumed that they had rights that they actually don't, and that has been spelled out in the FWS SC judgment. That doesn't mean I think that, for instance, single-sex spaces, women's sport, etc should be open to them, but if you have gone on for years assuming something was OK and it's just been made very clear it's not, that is going to feel like a massive setback. I don't agree with the Reddit hyperbole, but I think I can understand where it comes from. So much emotional energy has been expended on the "rights are not a pie" argument, which has now been settled, pantomine fashion (OH YES THEY ARE).

MarieDeGournay · 02/12/2025 10:51

MarieDeGournay · 01/12/2025 19:45

Thank you for posting, and this may be a good time to have one of our occasional outbreaks of 'synchronised donating', to SM this time, and as a gesture of appreciation for NC's work with them.

There's a 'donate' button on their home page
Sex Matters - It shouldn’t take courage to say so

Show quote history

I've emailed SM to let them know
Hi,
We're at it again, doing that 'synchronised donations' thing. If you detect an uptick in donations, it's us lot on the Feminism: Sex and gender discussions board on Mumsnet again, donating to express our thanks to Naomi for her work with SM, and our best wishes to Emma in her new role.

Hope that's OK, nobody seemed to mind me appointing myself as thread spokeswoman the last time!
I'll post the reply here and also over on the other NC thread.

MyrtleLion · 02/12/2025 10:52

SexRealismBeliefs · 02/12/2025 10:34

I agree with the majority of what you say - but I have been saying why do we not have a single TRA bringing a claim for being denied rights? Surely Dr Upton is the very model of the boy who cried wolf in this respect - he’s now changing down to his bra on his lonesome.

If he had a leg to stand on he’d sue.

They are the very definition of unwinnable cases. If they had a chance GLP would be lining them up.

Show quote history

TRAs do bring claims. I met one man in the early 2000s who made a living out of suing companies for not employing him because he was trans. I think most companies settle for a few thousand rather than have them to to court.

TBH I am incredibly surprised that Fife hasn't settled. Naomi said in her interview that only complete capitulation is acceptable in a settlement, but even then the FWS ruling gave them a graceful retreat. What has happened has been far more expensive* and reputation damaging.

*Yes I'm aware they're only liable for the first £25,000, but they've cost taxpayers a lot.of money unnecessarily.

MyrtleLion · 02/12/2025 10:54

MarieDeGournay · 02/12/2025 10:51

I've emailed SM to let them know
Hi,
We're at it again, doing that 'synchronised donations' thing. If you detect an uptick in donations, it's us lot on the Feminism: Sex and gender discussions board on Mumsnet again, donating to express our thanks to Naomi for her work with SM, and our best wishes to Emma in her new role.

Hope that's OK, nobody seemed to mind me appointing myself as thread spokeswoman the last time!
I'll post the reply here and also over on the other NC thread.

Show quote history

You are always so lovely and kind that I imagine you must be like this to everyone. I hope we'd be friends if we ever met in person

Thank you ♥️

SqueakyDinosaur · 02/12/2025 10:55

Fife can't unilaterally settle. All they can do is make an offer to SP, and she gets to decide whether to accept it or not.

Due to the exceptionally deep pockets of her backer, and the whole team's evident appetite to take this all the way, it's the ultimate FAFO.

SexRealismBeliefs · 02/12/2025 11:04

SqueakyDinosaur · 02/12/2025 10:55

Fife can't unilaterally settle. All they can do is make an offer to SP, and she gets to decide whether to accept it or not.

Due to the exceptionally deep pockets of her backer, and the whole team's evident appetite to take this all the way, it's the ultimate FAFO.

Total capitulation and acceptance they were wrong - that would never happen.

They were given a choice, we can do this the hard way or the easy way.

They went with the hard way. And may they get what they deserve and may justice come.

ProfessorBinturong · 02/12/2025 11:05

If that's the niche regulator I think it is, @SqueakyDinosaur, you really should write a book one day. Or a comic play.

SqueakyDinosaur · 02/12/2025 11:07

Maybe I could subcontract to Alan Ayckbourn? It'd be right up his street.

Majorconcern · 02/12/2025 11:14

The Times says decision is ‘imminent’. Is that the same as ‘d’rectly’ where I live?

Peregrina · 02/12/2025 11:15

Is that the same as "presently" which used to mean "right now" but now means, "when I get round to it"?

JustAn0therUsername · 02/12/2025 11:16

Majorconcern · 02/12/2025 11:14

The Times says decision is ‘imminent’. Is that the same as ‘d’rectly’ where I live?

Wonder if that means the embargoed version is now with the press. Following the period it’s been with the parties.

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