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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #55

1000 replies

nauticant · 19/11/2025 22:05

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to: [email protected]

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 from 28 September 2025

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49
Needspaceforlego · 01/12/2025 20:36

Alpacajigsaw · 01/12/2025 17:37

Just seen that Naomi has resigned as chair of Sex Matters

Wtf!

socialdilemmawhattodo · 01/12/2025 20:41

Majorconcern · 01/12/2025 19:10

When are Big Sond’s holidays?

Permanent retirement or perhaps decide to identify as a squirrel creating a conflict of interest.

Majorconcern · 01/12/2025 20:48

socialdilemmawhattodo · 01/12/2025 20:41

Permanent retirement or perhaps decide to identify as a squirrel creating a conflict of interest.

That would be wise. Apparently the new lawsuit has been referred to NHS Fife’s ‘legal team’ - so when’s a poor squirrel to relax a bit?

Needspaceforlego · 01/12/2025 20:50

DrProfessorYaffle · 01/12/2025 18:20

Agreed

Am sure she will do as much work off the record and will be extending their legal activities, albeit not in name.

It means that they can moved forward with SM legally challenging the squirrely statement while NC is representing SP in the same set of cases. It was all getting too conflicted otherwise.

Now that makes sense.

DrBlackbird · 01/12/2025 20:58

SexRealismBeliefs · 01/12/2025 19:06

Well at least we know what Naomi was doing in Scotland at the back end of last week.

Poor Carol. Just such a kind dear friend. She didn't mean to harass Sandie in six versions of a press release mid trail. She's just a kind friend.

The thing is, these women genuinely - and there are many many of them - and wholly believe that they are the right and that it is the likes of SP who are narrow minded bigots. And nothing and no one will move them from the position that it is the worst thing in the world not to be kind and inclusive. Thinking stops there.

I’m sure that in every other facet of her life, Potter is absolutely lovely. Genderism is a huge blind spot, a lacuna that cannot be acknowledged or filled as to do shakes the very foundation of beliefs on equality and diversity.

NebulousProfessorSupportPostcard · 01/12/2025 20:59

This reply has been deleted

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

I think this is the link to the original (archived version).

https://archive.ph/wh9UE

Click other snapshots at top and you should find around 12 images, though these were not all new iterations, just copies people saved at various times that weekend.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 01/12/2025 21:03

This reply has been deleted

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

I should think all publishers of the original statement, even amateur ones, will have taken it down as soon as they realised it was probably libellous.

DrBlackbird · 01/12/2025 21:06

MarieDeGournay · 01/12/2025 19:45

Thank you for posting, and this may be a good time to have one of our occasional outbreaks of 'synchronised donating', to SM this time, and as a gesture of appreciation for NC's work with them.

There's a 'donate' button on their home page
Sex Matters - It shouldn’t take courage to say so

Done

SexRealismBeliefs · 01/12/2025 21:57

DrBlackbird · 01/12/2025 20:58

The thing is, these women genuinely - and there are many many of them - and wholly believe that they are the right and that it is the likes of SP who are narrow minded bigots. And nothing and no one will move them from the position that it is the worst thing in the world not to be kind and inclusive. Thinking stops there.

I’m sure that in every other facet of her life, Potter is absolutely lovely. Genderism is a huge blind spot, a lacuna that cannot be acknowledged or filled as to do shakes the very foundation of beliefs on equality and diversity.

I’m not actually convinced.

I think she’s pretty stupid. In fact actually verifiably stupid. Because as an Executive during a LIVE hearing with daily NEWS reports during a high profile TRIAL, in which every word is LIVE TWEETED which shows your side are being absolutely BAT SHIT you don’t have much to do except not make it worse. Even if you agree with the batshit stuff and think Sandie is close kin with Hitler all you need to do is hold your WHEEST.

She’s just too incompetent to even just sit quietly while her shit show juggernaut continues.

She clearly hasn’t been competent for the role. The board didnt hold her to account for issuing 6 versions of a defamatory press statement. She should have been sacked for that alone.

The governance of these organisations is so horrific. Carol is guilty. Incompetent. Overpaid. Disconnected. Not verified as kind.

SexRealismBeliefs · 01/12/2025 21:58

NebulousProfessorSupportPostcard · 01/12/2025 20:59

I think this is the link to the original (archived version).

https://archive.ph/wh9UE

Click other snapshots at top and you should find around 12 images, though these were not all new iterations, just copies people saved at various times that weekend.

Edited

@NebulousProfessorSupportPostcard - this isn’t the first time I’ve been in awe of your keeping of the receipts.

moto748e · 01/12/2025 22:15

I’m not actually convinced

I’m not convinced either. But in the case of Carol, as @SexRealismBeliefs says, she's mostly just a bit of an idiot. But more generally, surely the proportion of 'true believers' is pretty small? Isn't it mostly just sticking with the herd?

Largesso · 01/12/2025 22:38

SexRealismBeliefs · 01/12/2025 21:57

I’m not actually convinced.

I think she’s pretty stupid. In fact actually verifiably stupid. Because as an Executive during a LIVE hearing with daily NEWS reports during a high profile TRIAL, in which every word is LIVE TWEETED which shows your side are being absolutely BAT SHIT you don’t have much to do except not make it worse. Even if you agree with the batshit stuff and think Sandie is close kin with Hitler all you need to do is hold your WHEEST.

She’s just too incompetent to even just sit quietly while her shit show juggernaut continues.

She clearly hasn’t been competent for the role. The board didnt hold her to account for issuing 6 versions of a defamatory press statement. She should have been sacked for that alone.

The governance of these organisations is so horrific. Carol is guilty. Incompetent. Overpaid. Disconnected. Not verified as kind.

Although, the statement smacked of blind panic did it not? I think they’d convinced themselves that the only reason they were looking so bad was because Sex Matters were engineering public opinion. It is clear in the way they approached this ET from the off that they are wholly used to manipulating the internal processes to serve their own ends and are very used to withholding information — until they met NC and CE. I agree there was no brain cells in operation able to analyse the bigger picture and so panic won the day. They wanted to cast aspersions on SM to regain the ground they had lost with TRAs — I don’t think they really cared about the tribunal itself. It made me think that they’ve probably been getting it in the neck from all their internal LGBTQ networks about how Upton was being treated and how awful it was that the board had put him in this position etc etc. Whoever advised them probably thought they could win back public opinion ie LGBTQ Twitter.

I suspect the deal has been done with Potter so other names will stay hidden. It will be interesting if FOI access is ultimately given to
make whole biz public.

SexRealismBeliefs · 01/12/2025 22:43

Largesso · 01/12/2025 22:38

Although, the statement smacked of blind panic did it not? I think they’d convinced themselves that the only reason they were looking so bad was because Sex Matters were engineering public opinion. It is clear in the way they approached this ET from the off that they are wholly used to manipulating the internal processes to serve their own ends and are very used to withholding information — until they met NC and CE. I agree there was no brain cells in operation able to analyse the bigger picture and so panic won the day. They wanted to cast aspersions on SM to regain the ground they had lost with TRAs — I don’t think they really cared about the tribunal itself. It made me think that they’ve probably been getting it in the neck from all their internal LGBTQ networks about how Upton was being treated and how awful it was that the board had put him in this position etc etc. Whoever advised them probably thought they could win back public opinion ie LGBTQ Twitter.

I suspect the deal has been done with Potter so other names will stay hidden. It will be interesting if FOI access is ultimately given to
make whole biz public.

Naomi, Charlotte and Margaret & likely JKR have been incredibly strategic here.

They have they eyes of the world watching and a thread 🧵 they pull upon and so much keeps unraveling.

I really can’t think that despite being so deep into lawyers they were choking on them, having crisis PR support, having a marketing team - and all other support functions - even if they wanted to please trans rights activists no one of any minor intelligence could determine their actions were sensible.

Alpacajigsaw · 01/12/2025 23:15

Maybe tomorrow is the day we’ll wake up and find Big Sond has been!

PachacutisBadAuntie · 01/12/2025 23:41

Alpacajigsaw · 01/12/2025 23:15

Maybe tomorrow is the day we’ll wake up and find Big Sond has been!

I have left out mince pies and sherry. No carrots though.

QuetzalTerfLus · 01/12/2025 23:45

PachacutisBadAuntie · 01/12/2025 23:41

I have left out mince pies and sherry. No carrots though.

Surely Big Sond is a whisky man - maybe that’s what we’ve been doing wrong!

PachacutisBadAuntie · 01/12/2025 23:52

QuetzalTerfLus · 01/12/2025 23:45

Surely Big Sond is a whisky man - maybe that’s what we’ve been doing wrong!

Very likely but I bet he likes a nice dry Amontillado. Anyway he can't go round all night delivering judgments and drinking whisky with each one, that would sozzle the most hardened Scotsman.

murasaki · 01/12/2025 23:55

I thought big Sond mentioned a gin and tonic during the tribunal at one point.

SqueakyDinosaur · 02/12/2025 00:06

PachacutisBadAuntie · 01/12/2025 23:52

Very likely but I bet he likes a nice dry Amontillado. Anyway he can't go round all night delivering judgments and drinking whisky with each one, that would sozzle the most hardened Scotsman.

The best career advice I ever received was when I was working at a fairly niche industry regulator. I went to a Trading Standards conference to tout our services, and our CEO said very solemnly: "Do NOT go drinking with the Highlands and Islands Trading Standards teams. They will still be necking it at 4am while you're having your stomach pumped."

I did NOT go drinking with the Highlands and Islands Trading Standards, but I was flattered to be invited.

WearyAuldWumman · 02/12/2025 00:54

SqueakyDinosaur · 02/12/2025 00:06

The best career advice I ever received was when I was working at a fairly niche industry regulator. I went to a Trading Standards conference to tout our services, and our CEO said very solemnly: "Do NOT go drinking with the Highlands and Islands Trading Standards teams. They will still be necking it at 4am while you're having your stomach pumped."

I did NOT go drinking with the Highlands and Islands Trading Standards, but I was flattered to be invited.

My late husband was from Aberdeenshire.

When he was in his 60s, we went to the reunion dinner for a Scottish regiment . There, he was delighted to meet up with a couple of the lads who'd gone through basic training with him.

We were at the same table as a younger ex-trooper and his wife. This lad was in his 30s.

At some point, the wives had all had enough and we returned to our rooms leaving the gentlemen to get pished reminisce.

It was about 5 in the morning before DH came up with a big grin on his face. The old soaks senior members of the group had drunk the younger lad under the table.

SpuytenDuyvil · 02/12/2025 01:21

MyThreeWords · 01/12/2025 15:28

It really was amateur squirrels, at best.

I saw an amateur squirrel in real life once. It fell plonk out of a tree right in front of me and my dog, which certainly isn't the behaviour of a squirrel with any kind of professionalism.

😂

MyrtleLion · 02/12/2025 03:31

socool · 01/12/2025 18:18

Totally off the cuff comment here, and I haven't thought it through, but I would dearly like the Gov Dep that funds/provides for the EHRC to actually fund claimants who believe they have been discriminated against under the Equality Act/SC judgment to take a case to court. The EHRC would then have precedent for future Guidelines.

IANAL, and as you can see I am not a deep thinker either! But the thought crossed my mind, and I wondered why not? These cases are discriminatory in themselves in a way (IMV) since the only people capable of taking them are those with deep pockets or wealthy benefactors.

The round of court cases will never end will it? But such cases can only be taken by a small minority who are affected. Not equal treatment is it?

So tell me why not, I suppose the EHRC is to be seen as independent or something and cannot intervene. I wouldn't agree.

I can see your point but the EHRC is a public body and must be independent. The TRAs would quickly accuse it of bias in our favour if it funded harassment cases for sex realistic women. It is also not a court and the only place to decide if an employee has been discriminated against, is a court of law.

Besides, we don't need another case. The law has been clarified by the Supreme Court. The Equality Act 2010 intended for sex to mean biological sex. Self ID was never lawful and men identifying as women were never permitted access to single sex facilities. The Deputy President of the Supreme Court and lead judge in FWS, Lord Patrick Hodge, said in an interview with the Times, "people had been led to believe by public authorities, among others, for the last 15 years that they had rights which they didn’t have. So I have some sympathy, quite a lot of sympathy, with the feeling that they had something taken away from them."

The GLP application for judicial review is very likely to fail because the law is settled and has been settled by the highest court in the land. No lower court is going to go against that. The only way that this is changed is if Parliament rewrites the Equality Act and there is no appetite for that.

What we are seeing is a string of employment law cases where employees with sex realist views have been badly treated by their employers because they hold these views. Most of them will win. This is not about clarifying the law, but about getting redress for harassment or dismissal. Some of the cases will be appealed and any Employment Appeal Tribunal (EAT) ruling will set a precedent that is binding on future cases.

Over the next five years we will see a dwindling of these cases because employers will finally work out that they must obey the law and will stop directly discriminating on these grounds. Because it's expensive. And ruins their reputations.

I expect to see tougher cases emerge where sex realists are indirectly discriminated against in the same way that racist employers no longer say they pay someone less because they are black but because the employee is not good enough.

I also expect to see cases where trans-identifying people take their employers to court for failing to provide gender neutral facilities. This will probably affect women who identify as men in particular because they may not be permitted to use the women's facilities.

We won't win every case. Sometimes the Bananarama defence may be true. Employees may be legitimately dismissed for expressing their beliefs in an aggressive and disrespectful manner. Imagine Glinner confronting someone trans in the workplace and calling them names - that could be a legitimate dismissal.

The EHRC is there to provide guidance on the law so that employers and service providers don't have to interpret the Equality Act for themselves. Sadly that guidance was corrupted by activists so that trans identifying people (and their employers and service providers) believed they had the right to access the opposite sex's single sex spaces. The guidance has been updated and submitted to the government who have chucked it into the long grass. It doesn't matter. The law is the law, even without the guidance.

SexRealismBeliefs · 02/12/2025 08:22

For you @MarieDeGournay

“We built this city on sexist roles”

We built this city
We built this city on sexist roles
Built this city
We built this city on sexist roles
Say I’m a lady, not the man in my face
Say you don't care who is naked in the ladies space,
Knee deep in the theology, sinking in our fight,
Too many sex realists slandered as extreme far right,
Naomi at the Tribunal, saying true things out loud, don't you remember?
We built this city, we built this city on sexist roles
We built this city, we built this city on sexist roles
Built this city, we built this city on sexist roles
Someone's always playing ideological games
Who cares, they're always changing the gender of their names
We just want to live here, but then men stole the stage
They call us trans-exclusionary, write us off the page
Naomi at the Tribunal, saying true things out loud, don't you remember?
We built this city, we built this city on sexist roles
We built this city, we built this city on sexist roles
Built this city, we built this city on sexist roles
It's just another day in a mixed sex prison cell,
Guards got him in a choke hold, oh, isn’t this your worst hell,
Who counts the money funding all this grift?
Who drives the wrecking ball if you catch my drift?
Don't tell us you believe it, cause they’re the ship of fools
Looking for victims, coming through your schools
Don't you remember? (Remember)
Naomi at the Tribunal, saying true things out loud, don't you remember?
We built this city, we built this city on sexist roles
We built this city, we built this city on sexist roles
Built this city, we built this city on sexist roles
Built this city, we built this city on sexist roles
Built this city, we built this city on sexist roles
We built, we built this city, yeah (Built this city)
We built, we built this city
We built, we built this city yeah (Built this city)
We built, we built this city
We built, we built this city yeah (Built this city)
We built, we built this city (Built this city)

WearyAuldWumman · 02/12/2025 08:28

Most recent Courier:

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/5384401/sandie-peggie-nhs-fife-carol-potter-legal-action/?utm_campaign=Courier_Subscriber_Email_Campaign_Oct23%202025-12-02&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_term=courier_subscriber_email_ob

An extract from the article:

Her team also says Ms Peggie was “victimised” by a 1,700 word statement NHS Fife issued part-way through the first employment tribunal.

Ms Gibbon claims NHS Fife’s solicitors have confirmed the controversial statement was personally approved by Ms Potter, who recently announced she is to retire.
Mr Miller will also face accusations of harassment over what Ms Peggie’s legal team say is his failure to provide assurances that NHS Fife will “not permit men, irrespective of their gender identity, access to female single sex workplace changing rooms”.
That is despite an equality impact assessment carried out by NHS Fife in October that concluded staff should use changing and toilet facilities that correspond with their sex at birth.
A spokesperson from NHS Fife said: “We note the intention to bring further legal proceedings and have referred this to our legal team.”
Scottish Conservative equalities spokeswoman Tess White said the admission Carol Potter signed of the statement shows her lack of judgment.
Ms White added: “The reckless statement which attacked Sandie Peggie and women’s rights groups should never have seen the light of day, let alone been personally approved by a top boss.
“It confirms that the outgoing chief executive failed an experienced nurse, betrayed women and wasted huge sums of taxpayers’ money in doing so.”

Sandie Peggie names retiring NHS Fife chief Carol Potter and second health boss in latest legal action

NHS Fife's director of people David Miller will also face a claim of harassment in Sandie Peggie's latest claim against the health board.

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/5384401/sandie-peggie-nhs-fife-carol-potter-legal-action/

SexRealismBeliefs · 02/12/2025 08:33

WearyAuldWumman · 02/12/2025 08:28

Most recent Courier:

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/5384401/sandie-peggie-nhs-fife-carol-potter-legal-action/?utm_campaign=Courier_Subscriber_Email_Campaign_Oct23%202025-12-02&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_term=courier_subscriber_email_ob

An extract from the article:

Her team also says Ms Peggie was “victimised” by a 1,700 word statement NHS Fife issued part-way through the first employment tribunal.

Ms Gibbon claims NHS Fife’s solicitors have confirmed the controversial statement was personally approved by Ms Potter, who recently announced she is to retire.
Mr Miller will also face accusations of harassment over what Ms Peggie’s legal team say is his failure to provide assurances that NHS Fife will “not permit men, irrespective of their gender identity, access to female single sex workplace changing rooms”.
That is despite an equality impact assessment carried out by NHS Fife in October that concluded staff should use changing and toilet facilities that correspond with their sex at birth.
A spokesperson from NHS Fife said: “We note the intention to bring further legal proceedings and have referred this to our legal team.”
Scottish Conservative equalities spokeswoman Tess White said the admission Carol Potter signed of the statement shows her lack of judgment.
Ms White added: “The reckless statement which attacked Sandie Peggie and women’s rights groups should never have seen the light of day, let alone been personally approved by a top boss.
“It confirms that the outgoing chief executive failed an experienced nurse, betrayed women and wasted huge sums of taxpayers’ money in doing so.”

How dare the press say such terrible things about Carol Potter?

She was once my dear friend.

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