NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #55

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to: [email protected]

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 from 28 September 2025

<proud>

You might be me.... except the litany was both my brothers' names, the dog's and then a pause, "dash it", and finally mine.

The NHS regularly misgender me. I think their super-computer thinks I am both sexes simultaneously, or something. And I eventually changed my surname to a really easy to spell one after both my father's surname and my first husband's surname being ones that had to be spelled out Every Single Time.

When Judge Sandy Kemp of Edinburgh announced that he would shortly be celebrating his eleventy-first judgement with a party of special magnificence, there was much talk and excitement in Mumsnet.

I think his lies about "note taking" along with the false allegations that he made against sandie its a clear cut case of bullying and harassment. Then we have his knowledge that atleast some of the women were unhappy about him using the women's facilities and his continued use of it makes it clear that he was happy to harass the women by continuing to use the women's facilities.
This all happened in 2023/4 the haldane ruling was 2022 and everyone was put on notice at that point that a man with the PC of gender reassignment but no GRC is a man and has no right nor the expectation of the right to use womens single sex spaces, the Scottish government even conceded that point at the SC so he knew or should have known that he belonged in the mens

What about U's statement that he would attend to a bio female patient if she asked for a female doctor, presumably because he is a biological female.....?

Of all the things I heard in this Tribunal, that disgusted me the most. Although my mouth was open in astonishment at most of it anyway.

It is similar in ways to the behaviour of those involved with the gynae surgery of one of the claimants in the Darlington Tribunal. They refused to remove the TiM nurse from the OT and told claimant to go elsewhere as the man was a woman or something similar to that.

It reminds me of a prominent TiM's posting all over Twitter about seeing a gender neutral provided toilet and intentionally walking all the way through the airport to find a women's toilet to use. There is no respect or care for women, they're merely tools to be used in gender identity expression, and the non consenting ones should be bullied, forced and overridden.

It was insane to ever indulge men so far in this. The SCJ if it's ever allowed to actually happen, makes clear: people should feel free to express their inner selves and have a lovely time and meet their own needs, and facilities to do so should be available, but no man is an actual women and women have a right to a space where men are not performing gender. Reality doesn't change, and other people have rights too.

I’ve put this on MN before (back in the day it was deleted!) but funnily enough am watching the original of this on Top of the Tops 2 right now whilst catching up with this thread so seemed apt!

They came from Staines
They had a thirst for knowledge
They saw a bandwagon at sixth form college
That’s where I caught their eye

They told me that they felt just like me
I said in that case go live my life
They said fine
Then in thirty seconds time they said

We want to dress like women people
We want to have whatever women people have
We want to be like women people
Want to live like women people
like me

Well what else could I do
I said I’ll see what I can do

I told them about women’s spaces
I don’t know why
But it must have started somewhere
So it started there

They said pretend we’ve got no willies
I just laughed and said
Oh you’re so silly
They said Yeah?
Well I can't see anyone else laughing in here.
Are you sure…

You want to live like women people
You want to have whatever women people have
You want to dress like women people
You want to be like women people
Like me
But I didn't understand
I just smiled and held their hand.

Grow your hair and wear a skirt
Pretend that all your feelz are hurt
Pretend the records can be wiped
Conform to all the stereotypes
But still you’ll never get it right
Coz when you lay in bed at night
And female fun just starts to pall
If you changed your mind you could stop it all

You'll never live like women people
You'll never do whatever women people do
You'll never be like women people
Your male gaze never slides out of view
So go back to being you
Because there’s nothing else to do

Sing along with the women people
Sing along and it might just get you through
Laugh along with the women people
Laugh along even though they're laughing at you
And the stupid things that you do.
Because you know women are cool.

(And SP, NC etc are the epitome of cool. Come on Big Sond!)

And I think @MyrtleLion you were in hospital for the last thread (I was in hospital at same time but finally home now atm) so I hope you’ve made/making a good recovery

I think the issue of Upton’s personal liability hangs on a number of issues.

Did he have permission to enter female spaces? Well according to the respondent witness, not until Bumbar got involved so initially he did not.

he was making notes (contemporary or otherwise) about her lack of acceptance
even. Though she did not know this it still can constitute harassment

What did he do when Sandie told him directly how uncomfortable she was in his presence? He put his big girl pants on and went right back in.

What did he do about her expression of discomfort (however that was expressed) He made a number of allegations about her, to fight fire with fire.

one might expect of a reasonable transgendered person (assuming that such a person exists) that they would seek an alternative place to change out of respect for a colleague.

was it sexual in nature, well yes in so much as he is a male in a female space, i don’t think any further motivations were clearly demonstrated, (in terms of current thinking)

How did the interplay between the NHS policy, attitude and support for Upton allow for such behaviour, was he entirely innocent because he was “allowed” ?

then just to ice the cake he sought in the most outrageous of ways to mislead the tribunal by tampering with his “evidence” Witnesses are expected to tell the truth to assist the tribunal in drawing its conclusions.

The tribunal are being asked to draw ground breaking conclusions, in the heart of gender land AKA Scotland.

it is a big ask, given the environmental thinking we have not yet left.

it is no wonder to me that JKR et al picked this case to run with because if it goes our way it will be fundamental.

Could he appeal, yes he could, if found personally liable, and his pleadings would shed further light on the issue.

As far as i can ascertain Sandie is up for the whole kit a and caboodle of our fight and seems well and chipper.

I think he will be found liable.

I think you meant to quote @ItsCoolForCats post, not my reply.

@WantToLiveLikeWomenPeople that is bloody brilliant!

Slightly side note, isn’t it nice now there’s so few deletions? It’s so…freeing.

😂😂😂

You win the internet today!

👏🏼 well why thank you so very much

I applaud Mumsnet for this space to share but I know it has been hard fought for and heavily moderated.

Love this… and the fact it references Staines. (Or Staaaynes, as we locals called it before it went all posh and became Staines-on-thames, yah?)

Left to go to university and never returned, however.

I was in hospital for nearly three weeks and discharged about five weeks ago. Thanks for asking about me.

I'm recovering slowly. Another seven weeks on antibiotics, and really run down because of a lack of friendly bacteria. The infectious diseases team call me every week or so to check how I am and I get regular ECGs and blood tests.

I'm tired and in some pain, but actually even that is improving. If I do too much I have to rest for a few days but I can see improvement from when I was discharged.

Mostly it was difficult to envisage a time when I'll be fully recovered, but I can see a glimmer of light in January.

Loved the Women People lyrics.

This is my mental image of Big Sond labouring over his verdict.

“It was the best of times,
it was the worst of times,
it was the age of wisdom,
it was the age of foolishness,
it was the epoch of belief,
it was the epoch of incredulity,
it was the season of light,
it was the season of darkness,
it was the spring of hope,
it was the winter of despair.”

Someone has hacked my webcam!

This has been a literary feast, really cheered me up. Alas, if Big Sond goes public tomorrow, he'll stop the flow - so if he does that, it had better be good

I am making no more predictions.

please let it be tomorrow

Bloody hell @MyrtleLion that sounds like hell on wheels. I am glad you are improving, it sounds hard fought!

PS Re my song, apologies to anyone who comes from Staines, hope it’s not triggering IIRC There was a reason at the time for it being Staines, so someone “notorious” must have come from there? It was written a good few years ago, NCed lots since but I was WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles.

Ali G was from Staines.

It has not been a picnic. When I was first admitted they were so concerned I realised that I could lose my leg or life to sepsis. I went a bit delirious just before the first operation to debride the wound because I had been taken off antibiotics and the infection had taken control.

There is metal in my ankle and they had to stop the antibiotics because it couldn't clean the infection on the metal and I would get reinfected. The operation was delayed but once I had it they put me on very strong IV antibiotics and then after a week of growing cultures, changed the regime.

I then needed another operation that was cancelled four times before they prioritised me and managed to close the wound. It then took two days to discharge me and I was prescribed 12 weeks of antibiotics by mouth. 18 days in hospital in total.

I am very fortunate to be at home and it's easy to think that because I am home, I must be fine. I am fine but I'm also still unwell and gradually improving and it will be mid January when I'm back to my old self.

Thank you all for your lovely support and kind comments, not just here but on other threads as well. I really do feel very cherished by this community of unknown women. ❤️

WantToLiveLikeWomenPeople, you are a genius😂I'd love to see 'We built this city on sexist roles' as well.

A propos, there is a county in Ireland called Roscommon, and there is a t-shirt which says' I want to live like Roscommon people'😄

@MyrtleLion please do rest! It makes a huge difference to healing and it hasn’t sounded like you’ve been taking it easy. We’d like some reports of lazy days on the sofa!

Bloody hell, you have really been through the mill. I hope it's all on the up from here on in.