"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 8

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct; AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6&7)
Thread 4, 29-Oct to 31-Oct; TA, AM (day 7) JB (day 8)
Thread 5, 31-Oct to 04-Nov; JB (day 8), SW, CG, JR (day 9)
Thread 6, 04-Nov to 05-Nov; RH (day 10), SW (day 11)
Thread 7, 05-Nov to 11-Nov; SW (day 11), closing submissions

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence now complete. Submissions are being made on November 11th. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, NHS ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, NHS trust HR.
AM – Andrew Moore, NHS Head of Workforce Experience
JB – Jillian Bailey, NHS Workforce Experience Manager
AT – Anna Telfer, NHS Deputy Director of Nursing
SW – Sandra Watson, Matron for General and Elective Surgery
JR – Jodie Robinson, manager of Rose

The Sun didn’t mess about with his photo 😆

Also, this is the first time I recall anyone has used the 'tiny minority' as a logical reason to give proportional weight to women's needs.

'Some 80% of the Trust’s workforce are female and, as we found, probably
more than 80% of its nursing staff are female and therefore, uniform wearers. The
number of transgender women who ‘might’ seek to use the female changing room
was extremely small. We heard of another transgender employee who used
alternative facilities although no details were provided. Therefore, out of 300 users
of the changing room in issue in this case, one was a biological male. There was
no attempt by the Trust to strike any kind of balance.'

Rose by any other name ...

That's how I see it, and even with that the judge said it was understandable that it would be perceived as hostile because of the way they were being treated. A brilliant barrister and a good judgement imho.

That's very interesting, because the current r/transgenderuk angle is that the case was lost on 'process', and if the transphobes (ie, the women) had been given alternative facilities it would all have been fine (NB: they had those, numbnuts. It's called the female changing room).

... Looks like a bloke

Sorry late, but Woohooo!!!!

I've now been through the whole judgement and I think that it is very clear and does a good tightrope walk of balancing the "he said/she said" allegations without damning either side. It also makes it very clear that it was the senior HR/management that are to blame for not considering the women at all. The run through the relevant legislation and how it all interacts is also very clear and well reasoned. He clearly also appreciated the expert advice from Jo Phoenix.

I do wonder whether Darlington will be told that Wes Streeting won't like them squandering more funds on an appeal?

She’s having another try, but Bridget might have issues with comprehension, it certainly was a drag when we did it at school

‘Women means women’: ex-commissioner lambasts delays on trans guidance

www.thetimes.com/article/20b84c9d-97ae-4df2-9190-870488c25d3a?shareToken=921e1a816d35e516ac31662e70c5c9be

And they were given an alternative anyway.

One without any kind of fire safety measures to it.

So the judge knew they were given an alternative and still ruled in this way. So it's fuck all to do with process, and yes they are numbnuts.

WOW🔥!

I noticed the spokesperson for the government talking about "safe spaces" again. 🤨

Well, they're completely wrong.

Fantastic news!
Have read the judgement. Was a very sensible move for the nurses to have recorded to the meetings. The second one in particular where all the corporate speak "art of the possible", is used is very illuminating about the difference between the management and our heroines.

That section has just made me cry. It might be the first time I've read something fromna judgement that actually considers what women have to put up with and how we change our behaviours based on pattern recognition.

Congratulations to the Darlington Nurses.

Darlings by name and nature.

'She said ministers were effectively asking how much it would cost organisations to comply with the law after years of being misled into breaking it.'

😔

Just get ON with it you useless bastards.

When I was reading the earlier sections of the judgement I was a bit disappointed as the judge didn't find Rose's behaviour in parading around in his boxers was unusual - a very male take on what is normal behaviour in a changing room. I've never seen women parade around in their undies. However I was pleased later that even though he didn't get this he did understand that women's perceptions of threat are real and well grounded - well done @JoPhoenix

The ruling seems interesting to me for this reason:

For a while I've noted that conversations about this go one way. We talk about safety, privacy and dignity. The TRAs come along and start squawking about how we are transphobic for implying that transwomen are dangerous and sex offenders and then go on about safety. But at EVERY opportunity turn the conversation away from the concept of women's privacy and dignity.

This ruling not only notes the nurses right to privacy and dignity, but emphasises it because its where they won. To quote from the BBC:
The judgement said the trust's policy had an "admirable and noble purpose", but it had the effect of "violating the dignity" of the nurses and of "creating for them a hostile, humiliating and degrading environment".
The road to hell is paved with good intentions but unless you consider everyone you can through good people who also have a right to privacy ad dignity under a rather large bus. Which is what we've been saying all along.

The BBC article continues:
When the nurses raised their concerns, they "genuinely felt they were not being taken seriously" and were "being in essence fobbed off by senior management and seen as trouble-makers", the panel said.
At no point did anyone in management or the trust's HR department "seriously consider" how their policy "might constitute some form of discrimination against female employees", the judgement said.

At which point anyone sane should be going 'Hallejah, Hallejah, you've finally seen the entire fucking point'. And in a certain corner of Scotland theres a loud cheer accompanying by a sudden silence eslewhere but for the scuttling of feet and the quietly drawing a deep breathe around the corridors of another hospital and the house of a Mr Kemp...

There's also this point which it draws attention to thats SO important; that although its only one transwoman, that ONE transwoman was affecting the dignity of some THREE HUNDRED WOMEN in one setting alone. One man = more important than 300 women. Thats hardly equality is it.

The tribunal saying that women have a right to complain and a right to recourse without being treated like shit, is a boom moment. The NHS are going to have to do some retraining. Maybe they can get a third party they haven't scruntised in to do it for them and spunk some more money up the wall...

Now there's a paragraph ripe for Kemp style quoting.

When I first read guidance from the likes of Stonewall that says you must allow trans people to use whatever facilities make them comfortable, I thought it was such awful misogyny and complete jibber jabber that no one would take it seriously.

It's really quite astonishing how many people have.

and because of that, it feels gobsmacking that a judge is saying exactly the same as the women here.

No, men do not have the right to violate women's boundaries on the basis of truly breathtaking, totally made up bollocks (okay, he may not have said exactly that 😁).

Bloody grateful to those women 💐

It is good that the judgement talks about the nurses article 8 rights. TRAs never seem to consider that women have rights under the European Convention on Human Rights too. They think that their rights are all that matter.

Datun.

The judge thought it. Somewhere he has a first draft of his ruling which involves many swear words of incredulity of people being unable to use their eyes and go "of course these women aren't being prejudiced dickheads"

It's like all these bleeding heart articles about Title IX in the US. It only one leetle transgirl/woman. No, you fucking numpties, it's millions of girls and women!!

I was going to say that. That he may not have said it, but I bet he bloody thought it.

But I don't know if judges are made of slightly different material to the rest of the population, given how many times they have to take everybody into account and not just the people I want them to.

Just had another look at the BBC online coverage and actually sniggered out loud at how they managed to produce the beautifully clear images of the lovely Darlington women (gorgeous one of them all hugging) in such contrast to the very fuzzy close up of the fragrant Rose Henderson, hmmm...
🤔