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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 8

1000 replies

ThreeWordHarpy · 11/11/2025 11:44

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct; AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6&7)
Thread 4, 29-Oct to 31-Oct; TA, AM (day 7) JB (day 8)
Thread 5, 31-Oct to 04-Nov; JB (day 8), SW, CG, JR (day 9)
Thread 6, 04-Nov to 05-Nov; RH (day 10), SW (day 11)
Thread 7, 05-Nov to 11-Nov; SW (day 11), closing submissions

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence now complete. Submissions are being made on November 11th. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, NHS ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, NHS trust HR.
AM – Andrew Moore, NHS Head of Workforce Experience
JB – Jillian Bailey, NHS Workforce Experience Manager
AT – Anna Telfer, NHS Deputy Director of Nursing
SW – Sandra Watson, Matron for General and Elective Surgery
JR – Jodie Robinson, manager of Rose

OP posts:
Thread gallery
38
FragilityOfCups · 12/11/2025 12:48

MarieDeGournay · 12/11/2025 12:43

This was in response to a post which I can't see any more.. did I hallucinate it?🙁

Yesterday at 20.35?

crumpet · 12/11/2025 12:49

NumberTheory · 12/11/2025 06:17

In the context I’ve used it here, women as a gender group would be the people who are conforming, or are perceived to be conforming, to the socially constructed role of woman.

But there are plenty of men who say they are women, with little to no attempt to conform to the stereotype.

and why should the definition be based on a stereotype anyway? Butch lesbians would fall outside your definition of women.

MarieDeGournay · 12/11/2025 12:54

FragilityOfCups · 12/11/2025 12:48

Yesterday at 20.35?

Well then I did partly hallucinate it - I must have accidentally jumped back a page or two!
It was a lovely post, anywaySmile

Madcats · 12/11/2025 12:58

Is anybody else annoyed that Wes was on a full blown media circuit this morning, but nobody thought to ask him about Darlington nurses/when he is going to make sure the NHS has single sex changing rooms.

FragilityOfCups · 12/11/2025 12:59

I have no idea why anyone thinks it's progressive to identify with any of this

One of the most frustrating aspects of this whole thing (and why it affects everyone, not just a "vulnerable few") is the notion that if you don't identify as trans, you therefore actively identify with the gender (expectations etc) that "align" with your sex.

A) no we don't and
B) anyone who is going around aligning, or matching, traits and behaviours to each sex in the first place should surely be looked on with suspicion?

In order to accept trans definition - that a person has a gender ID that either aligns with their sex or doesn't - there is this underlying assumption that there are such alignments for individuals and that that is a useful measure - they are using the bio sex as an indication of personality in reverse - using personality as an indicator of bio sex.

And the whole time I know that doing this with any other projected characteristic - even those that can be more of a non- binary, subjective spectrum (like disability) - would be looked at in horror.

MoistVonL · 12/11/2025 14:16

SternJoyousBeev2 · 12/11/2025 12:27

But would the facilties I could use change if the rules I am judged by change?

I wouldn't say so, but that's because I think facilities are separated by sex.

Gender is externally applied. Society imposes it on us, and we should be free to accept or reject it as we see fit. The differing straightjackets of various societies are all still straightjackets.

Easytoconfuse · 12/11/2025 16:06

FragilityOfCups · 12/11/2025 09:13

I tend to make my own mental additions:

"Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed by a sexist society. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated by sexist people with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time because it doesn't reflect each individual woman's experience.

Edited

Ooh, I like this. Thanks, it makes perfect sense.

Namechanged999999 · 12/11/2025 18:27

Namechanged999999 · 11/11/2025 13:30

I’ve just seen a clear unbalanced unbiased report on this on BBC News at 1! The tide is turning.

typo

Edited

Balanced I mean!

NotNatacha · 12/11/2025 19:16

Boiledbeetle · 12/11/2025 12:39

https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/24628298.darlington-trans-nurses-set-new-union-amid-legal-action/

This article contains a photo from inside the locker room.

So he, and any other bloke walking down the corridor, could have seen plenty if he was in the right place when the door was opened.

Thank you, @Boiledbeetle for that picture of the locker room. Very revealing, in several senses.

The sign on the door just reads "Locker Room."
It doesn't say who it's intended for, whether it's any particular subset of the hospital staff or all of them.

It also looks as if it's on pale blue paper on my screen, but that might just be the light falling on laminated white paper.

pontefractals · 12/11/2025 20:19

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 12/11/2025 11:50

My late MIL used to refer to a 'lift' (in a building) as a 'hoist'.

The very old goods lift (which we never ever used for people, oh dear me no) in the decrepit factory I worked in at the turn of the millennium was always known as the 'oist, including by people who called all other lifts lifts. Mind you, the front entrance hallway was known as the 'ovel. Dunno if that's a Greater Manchester thing or more widespread?

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 12/11/2025 20:28

Interesting, @pontefractals, but MIL had no connection to Manchester. A hoist to me was always for things, not people. It was just one of her many quirks, linguistic and other. If you told her that someone had just moved into the 5th floor of a block of flats, she would ask if it had a hoist, LOL.

nauticant · 12/11/2025 20:50

People hoists a-plenty:

https://www.hospitalbeds.co.uk/hoists.html

People hoists from other suppliers are also available.

socialdilemmawhattodo · 12/11/2025 22:06

Keeptoiletssafe · 11/11/2025 14:07

The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992

Look at the title. It is for health, safety and welfare that we have single sex facilities.

In all my research on toilets, I have never come across anything that would suggest women and men mean anything different in 1992. The idea is ludicrous.

Even in 2003, in the Sexual Offences Act, it is very clear on men and women. Again in the Government’s 2008 Provision of Public Toilets.

I love your posts. Seriously you post with such knowledge and common sense. Thank you for your energy on this matter.

NotNatacha · 12/11/2025 23:22

I’ve just realised that I know the phrase “Hoist me up!” to mean “Lift me up, then!” with a sense that it will take a great deal of effort.

There’s also that great Beach Boys classic Sloop John B with the repeated line “So, hoist up the John B sail.”

Other versions of the song are also available.

NotNatacha · 12/11/2025 23:27

From the link

… there have been colleagues that have had to wear clothing underneath their uniform because they haven't wanted to undress in front of a biological male."

I don’t remember that being mentioned before, but I might not have been paying enough attention.

OdeToTheNorthWestWind · 13/11/2025 09:15

NotNatacha · 12/11/2025 23:27

From the link

… there have been colleagues that have had to wear clothing underneath their uniform because they haven't wanted to undress in front of a biological male."

I don’t remember that being mentioned before, but I might not have been paying enough attention.

This may be because the colleagues were not part of the complaint and were not being called as witnesses.

CriticalCondition · 13/11/2025 09:34

NotNatacha · 12/11/2025 23:27

From the link

… there have been colleagues that have had to wear clothing underneath their uniform because they haven't wanted to undress in front of a biological male."

I don’t remember that being mentioned before, but I might not have been paying enough attention.

It may have been in the witness statements which went into evidence but weren't read out in court. As remote observers we only got to hear the bits that the witnesses were cross examined on. Anyone physically attending would have been able to read the witness statements which were made available at the back of the room. In the old days witness statements were read out in full. It's a pity that's been dropped. Sad times.

nicepotoftea · 13/11/2025 10:00

Easytoconfuse · 12/11/2025 16:06

Ooh, I like this. Thanks, it makes perfect sense.

Sorry for long off topic post, but as this is related to health policy, and as we have been discussing it - below are the different versions of the WHO definition of gender.

(changed at some point in 2020 according to Way Back machine/web archive)

There are some quite significant changes. For example the pre 2020 tex refers to binary sex categories and defines gender as what "society considers appropriate". It doesn't refer to gender identity, and I think is much more focused on the negative consequences of gender norms - apparently pre 2020 WHO was working to challenge gender stereotypes!

Post 2020, sex is "the different biological and physiological characteristics of females, males and intersex persons, such as chromosomes, hormones and reproductive organs", so more of a pick and mix thing. There is no mention of stereotypes, and gender has become characteristics that are socially constructed, so the implication is that gender is not a set of expectations that are likely to be wrong, but a way to classify character traits. (As has been noted, rather suggesting that your gender changes as you travel).

Gender identity is now defined, and there is talk about increased risk of suicide.

There is now a paragraph on violence against women, but I think many of the things mentioned relate to sex, not gender.

Old text (pre 2020)

Gender refers to the roles, behaviours, activities, attributes and opportunities that any society considers appropriate for girls and boys, and women and men. Gender interacts with, but is different from, the binary categories of biological sex.

Gender has implications for health across the course of a person’s life in terms of norms, roles and relations. It influences a person’s risk-taking and health-seeking behaviours, exposure to health risks and vulnerability to diseases. Gender shapes everyone’s experience of health care, in terms of affordability, access and use of services and products, and interaction with healthcare providers.
Gender intersects with other factors that drive inequalities, discrimination and marginalization, such as ethnicity, socioeconomic status, disability, age, geographic location and sexual orientation, among others.

Gender equality and women’s empowerment can improve health. Women and girls often face greater barriers to health information and services due to cultural gender norms such as economic dependence, patriarchal structures and a greater share and burden of domestic roles and responsibilities. They often have limited influence over resources within the household and in society, while having greater needs for services, such as reproductive services.

While it is important to address women’s specific health concerns, men are also faced with rigid gender norms associated with poor health outcomes. Traditional expectations of masculinity increase men’s vulnerability to serious health risks and make them less inclined to seek health care when needed. Gender diverse persons frequently face stigma and discrimination in the society and in health care settings. They are at greater risk for physical and sexual violence, and as a result have an increased risk for mental and physical ill-health.

WHO works to challenge gender stereotypes and combat gender inequality; identify and eliminate gender-related barriers to healthcare; and implement gender-responsive and -transformative programmes and policies to ensure health equity and universal health coverage.

New text (after 2020)

Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.
Gender is hierarchical and produces inequalities that intersect with other social and economic inequalities. Gender-based discrimination intersects with other factors of discrimination, such as ethnicity, socioeconomic status, disability, age, geographic location, gender identity and sexual orientation, among others. This is referred to as intersectionality.

Gender interacts with but is different from sex, which refers to the different biological and physiological characteristics of females, males and intersex persons, such as chromosomes, hormones and reproductive organs. Gender and sex are related to but different from gender identity. Gender identity refers to a person’s deeply felt, internal and individual experience of gender, which may or may not correspond to the person’s physiology or designated sex at birth.

Gender influences people’s experience of and access to healthcare. The way that health services are organized and provided can either limit or enable a person’s access to healthcare information, support and services, and the outcome of those encounters. Health services should be affordable, accessible and acceptable to all, and they should be provided with quality, equity and dignity.

Gender inequality and discrimination faced by women and girls puts their health and well-being at risk. Women and girls often face greater barriers than men and boys to accessing health information and services. These barriers include restrictions on mobility; lack of access to decision-making power; lower literacy rates; discriminatory attitudes of communities and healthcare providers; and lack of training and awareness amongst healthcare providers and health systems of the specific health needs and challenges of women and girls.

Consequently, women and girls face greater risks of unintended pregnancies, sexually transmitted infections including HIV, cervical cancer, malnutrition, lower vision, respiratory infections, malnutrition and elder abuse, amongst others. Women and girls also face unacceptably high levels of violence rooted in gender inequality and are at grave risk of harmful practices such as female genital mutilation, and child, early and forced marriage. WHO figures show that about 1 in 3 women worldwide have experienced either physical and/or sexual intimate partner violence or non-partner sexual violence in their lifetime.

Harmful gender norms – especially those related to rigid notions of masculinity – can also affect boys and men’s health and wellbeing negatively. For example, specific notions of masculinity may encourage boys and men to smoke, take sexual and other health risks, misuse alcohol and not seek help or health care. Such gender norms also contribute to boys and men perpetrating violence – as well as being subjected to violence themselves. They can also have grave implications for their mental health.
Rigid gender norms also negatively affect people with diverse gender identities, who often face violence, stigma and discrimination as a result, including in healthcare settings. Consequently, they are at higher risk of HIV and mental health problems, including suicide.

NotNatacha · 13/11/2025 12:46

OdeToTheNorthWestWind · 13/11/2025 09:15

This may be because the colleagues were not part of the complaint and were not being called as witnesses.

Yes, that makes sense.

It wasn’t that I thought it wasn’t true, it’s just that I thought it was another difficult consequence of not being able to use a single-sex changing room. Those women might have had to be too warm all day because they didn’t want to be only in their underwear in front of a biological male.

I do a lot of backstage work in amateur and some professional theatre. Where I live separate changing rooms from the adults and also a children’s-only toilet have to be provided. Until recently they had separate girls’ and boys’ dressing rooms, but more recently the children have been allowed to wear a ‘base layer’, basically a t shirt and shorts, which they never remove when getting changed. Now all the children can be in the same dressing room: at all times when they are backstage they must be with a licenced chaperone. It may not be the same all over England, the rules for children are locally determined as part of each one’s licence to perform.

This case reminded me strongly of that.

Meldrewreborn · 13/11/2025 15:51

Am I right in saying that the Trust currently has no policy allowing use of Female changing room by TW, and RH is not currently using it or since May2025? So, is the Trust finally recognising the established law, or are they dragging their heels again because they don't want to publish a revised policy that completely undermines their case in the Tribunal?

anyolddinosaur · 13/11/2025 17:16

Someone said they dont now have a policy, they withdrew the old one but have not put a new one in place. I suspect Rose is still changing in the ladies and the nurses still have a cubbyhole that doesnt meet fire regs.

CarefulN0w · 13/11/2025 18:52

Thinking about the under clothes, in other areas of healthcare, IME it is common to wear T shirts under scrubs for warmth - and the scrubs themselves are often made of mixed fibres. In theatres though, the air temperature is usually warmer and so staff are less likely to wear an extra layer under their, usually, cotton scrubs. If women are forced to choose between dignity and being a comfortable temperature, does that have the potential to impact (and possibly discriminate against) menopausal women?

NumberTheory · 13/11/2025 19:14

anyolddinosaur · 13/11/2025 17:16

Someone said they dont now have a policy, they withdrew the old one but have not put a new one in place. I suspect Rose is still changing in the ladies and the nurses still have a cubbyhole that doesnt meet fire regs.

No. It was stated Rose was now changing elsewhere since, I think, June. I’ll go and have a look. The tribunal judge at the prelim was unimpressed that Rose was still in the FCR then and said something along the lines of the Rs would keep things that way at their peril.

NumberTheory · 13/11/2025 19:34

NumberTheory · 13/11/2025 19:14

No. It was stated Rose was now changing elsewhere since, I think, June. I’ll go and have a look. The tribunal judge at the prelim was unimpressed that Rose was still in the FCR then and said something along the lines of the Rs would keep things that way at their peril.

Actually, I take this back.

What I thought was a statement that Henderson was now using other facilities actually says he changes in a separate room but still access the female changing room. And the statement about the Trust proceeding "at their peril" was about not engaging with proceedings, not about changing their policy.

Sorry.

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