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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Advice please - TIM teacher just arrived at DD’s school

1000 replies

KnottyAuty · 06/11/2025 06:50

DD reports that the new teacher has asked to be referred to as she/her and Ms Smith. They are obviously male. DD isn’t happy about the power imbalance of potential behaviour points and detentions for non compliance.

I’ve got no idea how to advice DD how to handle this but obviously know from reading here that using this language is a safeguarding problem. Ms Smith should follow the same rules as all the other male teachers. If everyone must use this language, then it looks like the school is unable to tolerate GC beliefs.

Suggesting that DD respectfully avoids pronouns doesn’t seem workable as using the teacher’s name will include “Miss”….

Is there a gender neutral way of referring to a teacher like “Professor”?!

What do I advise DD so she can work within her GC beliefs? And what should I write to the school to say about this?

eta clarification

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 15:11

BloominNora · 06/11/2025 15:05

Where have I said anything that suggests that people cannot have their own boundaries around language or that anyone should be subjected to coerced language?

You seem to have taken our disagreement about whether titles relate to the sex binary in the same way pronouns do, or whether they are a gender stereotype social construct as some kind of indication that I disagree with you on both of those - which I don't.

However, I do think that language, it's coding and meaning is extremely important, as demonstrated very aptly by this thread - which is why I feel it is also important to understand which elements of that language are use to denote social constructs vs biological reality.

I've been clear that while gendered titles don't bother me personally because I am wary about defending something which has been used as a tool of oppression for centuries.

However, I understand that they do bother some people and I don't have a problem with people choosing that for themselves.

I do believe, however, that there are ways of using language which both respects the teachers chosen identity and position and the OPs daughters right not to have to use Miss or She

Hence why I suggested in my first post that the OP has a discussion with the head and in subsequent posts that using they / Mx could be a way forward.

Thank you for explaining your position.

WhyCantISayFork · 06/11/2025 15:12

RoostingHens · 06/11/2025 15:09

because you are happy to encourage your daughter to uphold an ideology based on gender

It’s not an ideology at all. OP’s daughter does not believe her teacher can change his sex (and nor do I). Calling yourself Susan doesn't make you a woman, but if you legally changed your name to Susan, that becomes your legal name.

Therefore I would call that man Susan, and I would tell my daughter to do so, while we both know that although his name may be Susan (or in this case Ms) he remains a man.

Ddakji · 06/11/2025 15:12

BloominNora · 06/11/2025 14:08

Agree about He / She - I would just use They instead - but Miss / Mr / Mrs are not pronouns, they are titles which are conferred by society and have nothing to do with someone's sex.

Of course they refer to someone’s sex.

GiantTeddyIsTired · 06/11/2025 15:13

JadeSquid · 06/11/2025 15:07

But then you'd ve saying that all trans people are just men with kinks. Is that what you are saying? Because it sounds like youre sayimg we cant rely on any research where trans people report their experiences and views because they are all just "men with kinks"? Would that be a fair representation of your views?

Well, no, because some of them are female for a start.

But that's also not what she said (although it's interesting that that's where you went with what she said)

She said that men with sexual kinks aren't always honest about their motives.

Just like for instance, if you asked a kid with football and a guilty look if they'd smashed the window, they might say no. Doesn't mean all kids with footballs lie, just means kids with guilty looks and footballs next to broken windows, on the balance of, probability, are likely lying

WearyAuldWumman · 06/11/2025 15:14

HonoraryScouser · 06/11/2025 15:07

Literally this.

Would that it were so simple.

In the example that I mentioned above, the children tried to comply with the teacher's wishes. I'm not privy to the details of what happened since I was only on supply and not a manager, but it seems that the children didn't manage to comply fully and the teacher went off sick.

This was a school where a previous HT had had a rainbow crossing painted in front of the school entrance. By the time I did a stint there, the HT had moved on and the crossing had been left to fade.

Sazzasez · 06/11/2025 15:14

Howseitgoin · 06/11/2025 07:19

Sex & gender have two very different meanings & pronouns are gendered after all. And in any case there's no decree from above that sex trumps gender from a personal point of view. IE both are personal subjective belief systems.

Language matters.

Pronouns in the English language are not “gendered” - English is a remarkably ungendered language, compared to most of our neighbours, & much of the gendering we had (usually adopted from other languages, such as “poet/poetess”) is now obsolete.

And as you are clearly aware, sex ≠ gender.

In English 3rd person pronouns denote sex (where known), singular / plural, and unknown sex (as in “someone’s at the door: I’ll see what they want”)

We know the sex of this man & there’s one of him.

His claimed “gender identity” is irrelevant to matters of language.

Imposing counter-factual language on children is, among other things, a safeguarding risk.

Talkinpeace · 06/11/2025 15:15

@KnottyAuty
There are two issues, one is actually more important than the other.

For the Head and Governors
How will they ensure that the school complies with the 1992 H&S Regs
and the Cass Review conclusions
and the Supreme Court Ruling
and the School building regs
all of which require clearly defined single sex spaces.

Will the safeguarding policies of the school have proper provision for a trans identified member of staff ?
(MTF or FTM)

For you and your child
How many times a week will they be in the same room ?
How easy will it be for your child to avoid using any title or pronoun for the teacher ?

Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 15:16

WhyCantISayFork · 06/11/2025 15:12

It’s not an ideology at all. OP’s daughter does not believe her teacher can change his sex (and nor do I). Calling yourself Susan doesn't make you a woman, but if you legally changed your name to Susan, that becomes your legal name.

Therefore I would call that man Susan, and I would tell my daughter to do so, while we both know that although his name may be Susan (or in this case Ms) he remains a man.

There is a difference between calling a man 'Susan' and using female sexed language for him.

If the OP's DD could use the person's first name, it would be a different discussion. However, the OP has stated that the teacher has informed the students that they are to be referred to by the female title 'Ms'.

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 06/11/2025 15:16

RoostingHens · 06/11/2025 14:37

You have not explained why though? You have just stated we should respect how they identify. Safeguarding says absolutely the opposite.

I wrote out seven in depth arguments against affirming anyones identity especially teachers.

RhymesWithOrange · 06/11/2025 15:16

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 06/11/2025 15:16

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 06/11/2025 11:14

I have got carried away @KnottyAuty

Reasons Why a Pupil Should Not and Cannot Be Compelled to Use Wrong-Sex Pronouns

Gender identity is a subjective belief system and ideology, not an objective fact It is contested and not shared by the majority of people, who recognise sex as binary and immutable. Compelling anyone, especially a pupil in a school setting, to use pronouns or titles that contradict biological sex amounts to forced participation. This violates legal protections, safeguarding principles, and basic human rights....

Point by point....

1. It Enforces a Contested Belief System on Others

Gender identity is an ideology akin to a religious or philosophical belief, not a universal truth. Forcing pupils to use wrong sex pronouns requires them to affirm and participate in this belief, even if they hold gender-critical views. Schools cannot compel adherence to one ideology while ignoring others, as this discriminates against GC beliefs, which are protected under equality laws.
In an our society, no one is forced to practice or affirm others' religions or ideologies, so a pupil isn't required to recite prayers or affirm supernatural claims. Just the same, GC pupils should not be coerced into affirming that a male can be a woman, as this erodes mutual respect and tolerance.

2. Power Imbalance and Coercion Make It Abusive

Teachers hold authority over pupils, with the ability to issue detentions, behavior points, or other punishments for non compliance. This creates a coercive environment where pupils fear repercussions for not participating in the teacher's ideology, turning education into indoctrination.
Such compulsion is Orwellian, compelling people to parrot lies as truth under threat, which undermines free thought and expression. It's not voluntary politeness but enforced speech, which can lead to broader societal harm, like court cases where victims are forced to use wrong-sex pronouns for their abusers.

3. Safeguarding Risks to Children

Requiring pupils to ignore their senses (spotting a male in the females) dulls instincts and teaches them to disregard potential threats, which is a major safeguarding failure. This is especially dangerous in a girls' school, where an authority figure insisting on female pronouns could normalise boundary violations and increase vulnerability to grooming or exploitation.

Pronouns act like Rohypnol, numbing natural perceptions of sex differences. Forcing this on children prioritises an adult's feelings over pupils' safety and mental well-being, distracting from learning and causing cognitive dissonance.

4. Legal and Policy Protections Prohibit Compulsion

No one can be legally compelled to use preferred pronouns if it conflicts with their beliefs. Government guidance and ministers have confirmed that schools cannot enforce this, as it violates protections for philosophical beliefs under human rights laws. Pupils have the right to express GC views without punishment, and schools must accommodate this, not suppress it.
If a school enforces wrong-sex pronouns, it signals intolerance for GC beliefs, breaching equality duties.

5. It Undermines Education and Mental Focus

Pupils are in school to learn, not navigate ideological minefields. Constant mental gymnastics, avoiding natural language or forcing unnatural pronouns diverts energy from education and creates unnecessary stress. This is amplified in a power-imbalanced setting, where fear of punishment could lead to self-censorship or isolation from peers.

6. Majority Non Agreement and Broader Societal Harm

Most people do not subscribe to gender ideology - surveys show widespread recognition of sex as binary. Compelling minority beliefs on the majority erodes social harmony, as it prioritizes one group's demands over others'. This can lead to resentment, as the ideology requires everyone to play along and be nice unlike other beliefs that don't demand universal participation.
It sets a precedent for further issues, such as males accessing female spaces which directly impacts safety and privacy. In a girls' school, hiring a male teacher who demands female pronouns already blurs these boundaries. I see red flags.

7. Anti-Science and Morally Dubious

Sex is a biological fact, not a feeling. Forcing pupils to affirm otherwise promotes anti science rubbish, teaching them to lie about observable reality. This is morally wrong, as it prioritises adult validation over children's truthfulness and development.

This is absolute garbage. You as a parent should be rejecting this at the highest level for all these reasons.

This is before we ask what the schools policy is about trans identifying males in a female only school? I assume you have asked....

@RoostingHens this one

EuclidianGeometryFan · 06/11/2025 15:17

JadeSquid · 06/11/2025 15:08

No you'd have to side with these political parties in order to get in and make such policies stick.

That is a very binary way of looking at politics - that you have to either support the left wing party or the right wing party.
(And that political parties are the only method of affecting public policy)

Coming from someone who is unclear about the importance of the sex binary.

Is it just me? Is my sense of irony over-developed?

Akela64 · 06/11/2025 15:18

My advice Op is to write to the school and ask how they will protect and ensure respect for your daughters beliefs.

You need guidance from the school first. Once the school has provided then mumsnet will be a good place to review.

Flakey99 · 06/11/2025 15:19

@dinochum “be kind” Is that the best you can do?

Why are you prioritising a single man’s feelings about his pretend gender over a female child’s right to trust in biological reality?

Why don’t the feelings of ALL the girls in a girls school matter more than his?

We also have no idea what his female teaching colleagues are thinking about this issue. Presumably, they are also being coerced into complying with his delusional fantasies of pretending to be a woman?

ReallyShortAttentionSpa · 06/11/2025 15:19

If someone asks to be referred to by certain pronouns and gendered titles then that should be respected.

No it shouldn't. Not if it requires the person to lie.

I'm not a doctor, professor, reverend or dame, therefore I cannot compel anyone to call me as such.

RoostingHens · 06/11/2025 15:20

'gender critical'

Roughly - there are two sexes. It's not possible to change sex. When people are separated by sex, it's sex that matters, not 'gender'.

You missed out a significant part of it.

Sex is why women are oppressed.

Gender is how they are oppressed.

Gender is the regressive socially constructed stereotypes that demand women behave in certain ways, ways that are very often harmful to them. For example women being expected to dress in heels and be presented as sex objects, doing the majority of the housework, taking on specific jobs such as caring roles but not leadership positions, being ‘kind’ (giving priority to others), be submissive, like pink, dislike football or cars. GC belief states that women are women because of our sex and the rest is BS - we should not be expected to conform to harmful gender stereotypes. Gender ideology states that women are women because they identify with those harmful regressive stereotypes.

WearyAuldWumman · 06/11/2025 15:21

I'll add that I was genuinely peeved last year when deputes and some pupils kept calling me "Miss" when I'm a "Mrs". It wouldn't normally have bothered me, but I'm still - even though it's been a few years now - getting used to being a widow.

In some cases, I said "It's 'Mrs', actually," but I didn't complain about it. I should hope that the OP's daughter's teacher would be equally sensible. I'm not sensitive enough to think that people deliberately got my title wrong in order to upset me.

WhyCantISayFork · 06/11/2025 15:22

Helleofabore · 06/11/2025 15:16

There is a difference between calling a man 'Susan' and using female sexed language for him.

If the OP's DD could use the person's first name, it would be a different discussion. However, the OP has stated that the teacher has informed the students that they are to be referred to by the female title 'Ms'.

Well yes, and this is why I used the phrase “because I pick my battles” and not “because it’s right and proper”.

WearyAuldWumman · 06/11/2025 15:24

ReallyShortAttentionSpa · 06/11/2025 15:19

If someone asks to be referred to by certain pronouns and gendered titles then that should be respected.

No it shouldn't. Not if it requires the person to lie.

I'm not a doctor, professor, reverend or dame, therefore I cannot compel anyone to call me as such.

I've said on another thread that a Catholic priest once complained to my best friend's boss because she'd called him 'Sir' instead of 'Father'. My friend had explained that she wasn't Catholic, but the priest had insisted.

My friend's boss supported her.

I'm not Catholic either, but have used 'Father' when working in a Catholic school. However, I support my friend's right not to use the title.

PastaAllaNorma · 06/11/2025 15:24

Would that it were so simple.

Now I am laughing at the Hail, Caesar scene with Ralph Fiennes as a director trying to teach the cowboy to say that phrase. Trippingly.

AnSolas · 06/11/2025 15:25

Cappibarra · 06/11/2025 12:34

It really doesn't. It's just learning another name. "This is your new teacher Miss Smith. Just like Miss Houghton next door and Mr Fudge who teaches maths"

what will happen here if a child on autopilot calls the man 'Mr' or 'Sir'

You seem to be implying immediate firing squad over a simple mistake. The option that there's a correction and nothing more comes of it is also available.

If any of the children have asked much trouble with it as you seem to have, then perhaps this is a good opportunity for some support for their general IQ

Sigh....

Or its a good opportunity to provide support for the adult males IQ?

The male knows he is male or should not be let loose in a classroom if he cant understand that he is male.

He is there to do the job of providing data for a given subject.

If he is the type of adult who insists on a child in his care pretend that he is a female he is not a very useful addition to the schools teaching staff.

RoostingHens · 06/11/2025 15:26

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 06/11/2025 15:16

@RoostingHens this one

Ah sorry, I thought you were the poster I was replying to. What I meant was why should a teacher be expected to be able to bring his ‘identity’ to work? Why should anyone be expected to have any consideration for how he chooses to identify? His sex is all that is relevant in his job and that is all that matters when children are addressing him, not his belief.

1apenny2apenny · 06/11/2025 15:27

It’s forced language. Imagine if even a few if the girls identified as men and wanted to be called by a boys name. Would we expect this TIM teacher to remember and respect all pupils preferences? No it would be impossible. I would tell DD to avoid use of Mr/Miss and just say ‘excuse me’. It would be interesting to see how vexed he would become by this ie if none of the girls called him Miss.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 06/11/2025 15:30

GiantTeddyIsTired · 06/11/2025 12:29

Of course it's mental gymnastics to have to remember to call this man 'Miss'

How often do teachers get called 'Mum' because kids are on auto-pilot when answering? Obviously we all laugh when that happens, but what will happen here if a child on autopilot calls the man 'Mr' or 'Sir'

Mrs Overton has it right, this needs to be tackled from the parenting angle on how this is going to be practically handled.

... or Dad! 😁

And how would the teacher know whether this was autopilot or cheek?

WearyAuldWumman · 06/11/2025 15:32

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 06/11/2025 15:30

... or Dad! 😁

And how would the teacher know whether this was autopilot or cheek?

Edited

That's actually a good point. Even at secondary school, I was sometimes called 'Mum' - always to the embarrassment of whichever boy had said it. (I never got that from a girl, funnily enough.)

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