"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 7

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct; AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6&7)
Thread 4, 29-Oct to 31-Oct; TA, AM (day 7) JB (day 8)
Thread 5, 31-Oct to 04-Nov; JB (day 8), SW, CG, JR (day 9)
Thread 6, 04-Nov to 05-Nov; RH (day 10), SW (day 11)

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, NHS ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, NHS trust HR.
AM – Andrew Moore, NHS Head of Workforce Experience
JB – Jillian Bailey, NHS Workforce Experience Manager
AT – Anna Telfer, NHS Deputy Director of Nursing
SW – Sandra Watson, Matron for General and Elective Surgery
JR – Jodie Robinson, manager of Rose

TT

and I was very struck by it.
J - this is where female sportswriters go into male locker rooms
JP - there was a change in law and it was in a professional context
J - so that's an inference
JP - I've tried to indicate the weight of the evidence I put before you

However, we do really need to acknowledge the historical separation of the sexes - see toilets, changing rooms, prisons etc.

TT

J - final q, first sentence, again, just my understanding - the thrust of the opinion is that more women than men feel personal insecurity, and that is because of the history of men and women, is that right
JP - you've got it right, you cannot say it is simply about personal

I think JPs evidence is a bit too complex to be understood by the ET?

I think that's a really good point - up to very recently, separate toilets/CRs wasn't even an issue, so why was it so accepted for so long, and so contested recently?

TT

insecurity, it is much more than that, and this speaks to the point about individuals
J - I think I've probably asked qs that were on the minds of my colleagues, any from the barrister
NF - you were asked about 'women who don't mind', it was presented to you as a concept that

I still can't find it but yet again I have ringing in my head Elizabeth Fry and not just freeing women prisoners from predation but also from the fear of predation.
If I'm right then 2 hundred odd years later we still have to keep going through this?

That was a blinder of a question from NF!

TT

women don't mind. Is it fair to consider that as constant across ages - from youth to old age.
JP - no, there are periods of acute discomfort, adolescence is one, when women have periods, women also have problems with incontinence after childbirth and post-menopausal. A woman

I love that Jo happily talks about cycles, women bleeding, child birth in a Court so beautifully. It is a beautiful process to watch. (From TT earlier)

I am in awe. I want to be more like Jo.

I wish NF would follow that question with one about how relevant that is to RH.

TT

will experience things differently throughout her life.
NF - menopause?
JP - post menopausal women tend to have more problems with bladder incontinence, menopausal women have sweats, it is almost impossible for women to escape their biology, women are smaller and slighter

It’s like the fuckwits who insist that men as a class aren’t stronger than women and that women who eg wouldn’t win in athletics against a man just ‘aren’t trying hard enough'

😍

I especially liked her emphasis on how we (women) are constantly reminded that we are female every 28 days.

Thank you, Jo P

TT

we have periods, we go through menopause, we are constantly reminded that we are women by our biology, every 28 days through our adult lives. For example if a woman floods during her period, that is tremendous shame...
J - thank you, I'm going to stop your there.

She did great.

If find it interesting that the judge noted the lack of HR people in court today - I know a PP suggested because they didn't want to hear the GC point of view, but I'm concerned that it may have been more to intimidate the respondents witnesses?

we have periods, we go through menopause, we are constantly reminded that we are women by our biology, every 28 days through our adult lives. For example if a woman floods during her period, that is tremendous shame...
J - thank you, I'm going to stop you there

He was more comfortable batting concepts backwards and forwards😄

TT

J - thank you, JP that concludes your evidence. Don't forget to get your watch back.
J - that finishes us for today. We will have written submissions on Monday morning at 10 am. How long
SC - my oral subs will be in response to NF's subs
J - so you're going first

JP: ... and if a woman floods during her period that causes shame, a tremendous sense of shame--

J: I don't want to cut you off in mid-flow.

I know it's childish but 😂

All done until 10:00 on Tuesday.

Killing animals was not just for meat. The skins were clothing, blankets, tents. The bones were tools.

It sounds like a double entendre, but i always really enjoy the oral submissions.