"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 7

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct; AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6&7)
Thread 4, 29-Oct to 31-Oct; TA, AM (day 7) JB (day 8)
Thread 5, 31-Oct to 04-Nov; JB (day 8), SW, CG, JR (day 9)
Thread 6, 04-Nov to 05-Nov; RH (day 10), SW (day 11)

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, NHS ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, NHS trust HR.
AM – Andrew Moore, NHS Head of Workforce Experience
JB – Jillian Bailey, NHS Workforce Experience Manager
AT – Anna Telfer, NHS Deputy Director of Nursing
SW – Sandra Watson, Matron for General and Elective Surgery
JR – Jodie Robinson, manager of Rose

TT

the historical prevalence of the risk of male on female violence, or is that over simplifying it.
JP - I may have misheard you
J - does it boil down to the historical prevalence of the risk of male on female violence and the fear of, that triggers response
JP - that doesn't

It's not a good look for the Trust management that none are attending.

Literally shows they refuse to listen to any gender critical perspective.

The evolutionary end point of this is a recent MN thread where the OP’s dilemma (AFAIR) was that some family member’s protein-packing boyfriend was demanding a whole chicken to himself at Sunday lunch.

TT

speak to the modesty norm,
J - what is the modesty norm
JP - that women are much more sensitive to undressing than men
J - and the other
JP - that women are particularly afraid of being compelled to undress, that's the response to historical violence,

"Four chickens... and a Coke."

I thought that was no longer held - I thought that women contributed more in hunting and gathering societies, the gathering was more important than the hunting to survival.
Less butch, of course🙄

TT

J - [interrupting] I don't mean to be discourteous but you have answered my qs. your conclusion here, q a or b
JP - it comes down to fear of crime, men's fear of crime is very different than women's fear of crime
J - is there any research on women's reactions and responses

TT

to women in the presence of bio males who profess a female gender identity,
JP - not that I can think of immediately, there is a different q that people are beginning to ask, does gender identity override sex based patterns of behaviour
J - repeats,

J is enjoying this

TT

does gi override sex based', I don't want you to elaborate on that just yet. Go on to ... a quote you refer to extensive discussion in USA and Canada of tws presence in female crs' what does that mean
JP - that quote is referring to are popular and political discussions, not

Thanks! @ickky

He sure is. She’s matching his energy, that’s for sure.

But maybe the meat was a treat -so highly valued

J - is there any research on women's reactions and responses to women in the presence of bio males who profess a female gender identity,

• it's all a bit recent, Judge, and any female academic who tried to do that research would probably be driven off campus with pitchforks by the TRAs and allies.

Big brains like meeting each other. They find it all fun and stimulating.

Whereas I would tremble, cry and mumble

TT

research.
J - who are they (Woo, Kaschler and Harris ?)
JP - researchers and authors
J - you don't use their work in your paper this is your only reference
JP - yes
J - may not have any bearing....[J is reading, looking for his q]

Yes, immediate shut down of any research of this type.

It would be glorious if she were able to add something like that.

I hope NF is sat there cursing that he didn't ask some of this stuff.

Meat also provides essential vitamins and minerals in a concentrated and easily digested form. It’s not just about the protein.

I agree, and his qq are putting useful stuff on the record, and he is making JP's journey worthwhile - it looked like no-one had any qq for her after just a few mins!

Much as I would if I was required to undress in front of a bloke.

But since it's not academically proven that centuries of understanding of dignity and women's voices and women's feelings mean anything next to the equally unproven but very very special feelings of the bloke....

TT

J - para Roman number 16, page 14, seems to be talking about heterosexual male behaviour in locker rooms, why heterosexual important
JP - locker room studies, in general men's locker rooms have a greater level of camaraderie unless you are not heterosexual

TT

J - qualitative accounts further illustrate that men's discomfort at undressing in front of women is muted, what does this mean, how is it relevant,
JP - forgive me that was very awkward phrasing, it wasn't a study, it was anecdotal but it was the only thing I could find

I’m only following on TT but you can tell these two are vibing.

Law’s the law, though.