"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 6

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct; AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6&7)
Thread 4, 29-Oct to 31-Oct; TA, AM (day 7) JB (day 8)
Thread 5, 31-Oct to 04-Nov; JB (day 8), SW, CG, JR (day 9)

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, NHS ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, NHS trust HR.
AM – Andrew Moore, NHS Head of Workforce Experience
JB – Jillian Bailey, NHS Workforce Experience Manager
AT – Anna Telfer, NHS Deputy Director of Nursing
SW – Sandra Watson, Matron for General and Elective Surgery
JR – Jodie Robinson, manager of Rose

If they were absolutely unusable, they'd probably get shoved in the bin. If they were just not the right size (sometimes they get mixed up in a cubby and you sometimes can't see the size until you pick them up because of how they're folded), you'd fold them back up and put them in the right cubby. If they had some sort of soiling that has missed the cleaning process, you'd put them into the dirty bag. But generally, you'd make that judgement within moments of getting them.

Everyone I know would put them to be relaundered. Generally ours are folded and stacked in tubs if they are trousers and folded or sometimes hung up when it is tops. TBH it looks like a poor jumble sale when everyone is trying to grab a set!

I wonder how the Trust could possibly have avoided all this???

Ooh! That's a tough one....

Nope! I've no clue as to how the Trust could possibly have avoided this situation.

None whatsoever!

I pity his poor wife.

Thank you. My point really is whether HCPs/hospital policy would regard scrubs someone else had actually tried on (rather than just looked at and rejected) as no longer clean. And whether it would be appropriate to return them to the shelf for wear by someone else.

I am somewhat haunted by the M&S underwear trying on/returns thread a while ago. 🤑

If I'd put them on my bare skin and then thought they didn't feel right, they'd go in the dirty basket.

Are you able to wear anything - eg a vest top underneath? or just a bra and pants?

For me it would depend if any lotions/perfume I'd used transferred their smell to the fabric. I once bought a top online and it arrived reeking of perfume which took five washes to get rid of.

Did someone tell him dark colours and vertical stripes are slimming?

Yes, we've heard a lot too much about RH's boxers but not top 'underwear'. Women presumably are wearing bras or bralets. Would it be usual to also keep on a t shirt or vest underneath the scrubs top?

Noone has mentioned RH's top half in the CR or what he wore on it. It seems to be a t shirt or scrubs top. If he's been sporting the same generous norkage at work that he did today giving evidence I think he would have needed something to put it in.

The generous norkage does seem to be an optional addition.

"I have top dysphoria about my lack of breasts."

https://twitter.com/CConcern/status/1985743845808873951?s=19

Rose admitted today:
➡ “I am very conscious about my bottom half when changing. I do wear what some people call boxer shorts. This is because I have the anatomy which requires them, unfortunately.”
➡ “I have top dysphoria about my lack of breasts.”
➡ “I appreciate that I have a very deep voice.”

If he was drinking so much, I hope he didn't use the women's loo in the court building to empty his bladder.

I knew Rose's hair style looked familiar.

Upton sports the same style

I’ve been debating with myself whether to post on this, I’ve been following it through but have registered a new account to stay anonymous.

I used to work at Darlington in theatres - I left before RH started there but I know some of the claimants, and most of the witnesses called.

a couple of things: the changing rooms were newly built a few years ago - there are no individual cubicles. The lockers are crammed in with 3 in a column (if I remember rightly). There are bays of lockers with benches in the middle. I detested getting changed in them and usually went in the shower cubicle.

wrt scrubs - when I was there the rack of scrubs was near the entrance - you walk in, find a set of scrubs in your size then go to locker. If you needed different ones it wasn’t far to walk between lockers and scrub rack, and most would keep the ink-spotted/ripped scrubs on and walk over in them to get new ones (i don’t remember anyone who would put their outside clothes back on then go to the rack)

Theatre and DSU share the changing rooms and although there are different start/finish times in my recollection there was a bit of overlap as theatres run late/we had different finish times of 6pm, 6.30 or late shift of 9pm. Very feasible to be getting changed at the same time as dsu staff.

As a caveat - I left in I think 2017/18 so am aware my recollections may not be correct in more recent times. It goes without saying I stand wholly with the nurses.

It also backs up the assertion that he was in there at shift changes and times that did not involve his own dept and team, where he would have known the women. Odd that. 🤔

Same barber based in Malaga, i assume?

I’m surprised no one had a little brass safety pin to offer him to close that massive gape!

IANAL but I don’t think it’s the same as criminal courts where the prosecution have to prove guilt. I think ET panels are allowed to infer key aspects ie is it credible that so many nurses conspired to make false allegations? This stretches credibility on a number of levels because they complained at different times for the most part and if they were conspiring to create such false allegations they wouldn’t have been so ‘mild’. I’m not saying having a man in C with the behaviours is mild, anything but, but when people lie they tend to go for amplification and exaggeration. Just like RH did in replies. There is not a chance in hell he fully dressed again to go get scrubs. The panel don’t need proof that that was a lie and they can allow that it provides an excuse for wandering about rather than just being locked into facing his locker in their reasoning. He also admitted to holey boxers which detail rather proves the nurses honesty. He clearly felt their discomfort gave him greater legitimacy- the hard stare being a threat of ‘you are transphobic and if you don’t validate me I’ll report you’ sort of threat.

My understanding is ETs work on the balance of probability e.g. 49%:51% rather than beyond reasonable doubt.

Fair point. But we know from earlier evidence that this is a large changing room and the scrubs are inside and just to the left as you enter the main door.

Given that he's only ever used the women's, and that he started as a student, you'd think he'd have learned from others, if not on his own initiative, to check his scubs are ok before changing.

And since he himself reports having sarcastic exchanges with his colleagues over the time they take yo change, you'd think one of them would have exclaimed in exasperation at some point that he could save time by nipping to exchange damaged scrubs while wearing the duff pair, rather than changing back into civvies just to cross the changing room and back again to his locker.

He is presenting with all the poise and certainty of an adult in court (well, when not speaking!) but his own testimony suggests he is a hopeless holey-panted teenager when it comes to the routine task of getting changed. It makes no sense at all.

More holes in his evidence than there are in his boxers. Ba boom tish!

I was out as a trans woman when I started working at the trust as a student in 2019, and I had been out for several years prior to this.

(From Northern Echo)

So assuming he's currently 26 ish? 2019 he'd have been 20? Several is what? 3 years maybe? So he's been claiming to be a woman for all his adult life?

Time he grew up and realised he's an adult man.

I assume the huge norks are prosthetics, like the ones Barbie Kardashian wore when he was released from prison 😬

I think his professed 'I don't stare at people, I'm not that sort of person' was rather at odds with his fixed gaze at NF throughout questioning.

Or the Canadian 'shop' teacher. Not quite in that league but there's always time.