"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 5

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct, AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6&7)
Thread 4, 29-Oct to 31-Oct, TA, AM (day 7) JB (day 8)

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, NHS trust HR.
AM – Andrew Moore, NHS Head of Workforce Experience
JB – Jillian Bailey, NHS Workforce Experience Manager

So many witnesses saying how complex the situation is. In reality it’s dead simple.

NF What about Radheka, anaes
No
NF U refer to ? meeting. What was said
Prob just asking for advice
NF U say asking for advice from HR but didnt receive any helpful info. what were u told
JR As such a complex sitn cant be fixed straight away. We just wanted assistance

NF Do u recall a mtg after the 26 where ppl asked if they had a problem w Rose in CR
JR No
NF Did u talk to Rose about a soln to this sitn
JR No. Didnt discuss Rose moving at any time, nor Rose raise it w me
NF U refer to a mtg on 29 May 24 w HC, RN Ronnie Nicholson from TU for Rose and others

Yes, there are far too many people who hear transwoman and think of lovely gentle Hayley Cropper, who was of course played by a woman.

But, but, it's just sooooo .... complex!

🙄

this jody person is coming across quite evasive so far

NF Look at p985 re that meeting. Have you seen this document recently
JR No
NF Take some time to look at it then. Do u recall if u prepared this
JR No I dont think so
NF U say [reads re Rose's contact w the trust] How was it decided HC wld be contact

JR No. Might have been HR. Imagine was from a supportive point of view
NF Thank you Miss Robinson
J We'll have a short break to see if we have any Qs. We'll call for you in about 10 mins.

Very much a vibe of wanting to be anywhere but in tribunal!

WFTCHTJ after being kicked out. I missed last bit of J speaking can anyone help?

Oh sorry Tt explains it!

It's only complex if you have a policy saying things that do not match material reality (and the law), but as a manager in the real world you are expected to comply with the policy.

In some ways I feel for all these managers. You can have all the policies in the world saying trans women are women, anyone can assert that they are a woman, and they should be able to change where they want, but how to square the circle in reality is impossible.

I suspect what they all mean when they say "it's complex" was "the policy was unworkable but I didn't want to be seen as breaching the policy because if I don't, I could a) get fired, b) fail my next inspection or c) end up in front of a tribunal."

I get the feeling this witness is a bit of a believer, myself?

@Shortshriftandlethal I'm catching up still but in case I forget before I reach the latest bit and no-one else has picked it up - a FOI request produced the answer that the poster was not official.

Same here.

If they took the time to ROC drill their policies they should have discovered it was unworkable. I wonder if ‘Pat’ actually authored the policy or just pulled sections together from other documents and sources, a copy and paste job with minor changes to reflect the hospital trust.

The trans identified man at my previous place of work dressed every day in a very short skirt, tights and stilettos. He is an engineer who works at a power station. Most employees who work in the same area as him work in overall and safety shoes, including the actual women. If an actual woman dressed like that they would have been told it wasn’t acceptable. But the managers appeared to be too scared to tell him.

This one might be a believer, I was just making the point about how many witnesses have said "it's complex". We are thinking they mean that it's complex to find a solution, when to us it's perfectly simple - RH is a man who shouldn't be in the women's changing room, so RH needs to change elsewhere - in the men's, or in a separate space.

But I suspect that many of them mean that it's complex to apply the policy, while coming up against the material reality of RH being male in the women's CR.

And double especially given issues with his dad and his own behaviour. So much simpler to call women transphobic and re-educate them. After all, they can't do anything, can they? Oops...

@NewInks similar to how all the managers here appeared to be too scared to discuss with RH a) his behaviour in the CR and b) whether he was willing to get changed elsewhere.

I've read it more as the policy boxing them in completely by enshrining TWAW at the point of self ID.

We're back in online but an empty court room

I’m back in, but it’s been a long break. Nobody we can see in the tribunal room yet.

Snap!

I wonder what’s taken the panel so long to discuss, especially since it was such a short time after the lunch break.

Some information about the rest of the week, but waiting for TT to report.
Nothing startling.