"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 5

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct, AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6&7)
Thread 4, 29-Oct to 31-Oct, TA, AM (day 7) JB (day 8)

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, NHS trust HR.
AM – Andrew Moore, NHS Head of Workforce Experience
JB – Jillian Bailey, NHS Workforce Experience Manager

They used to be called Operating Department Assistants (ODA). They used to be regarded like HCAs as general gofers in theatre but nowadays it’s a degree course.

I like the way this judge handles matters e.g. witness statements.

I wonder if they are not disclosing if/when RH gives evidence to stop a media scrum on the day.

Thank you for all the responses about Rose’s job title. Not a nurse in a strict sense of the word, then. A different qualification, gained at university with a lot of work experience.

Possibly nurses qualify in a similar way now.

"Senior NHS Executive warned of “politically correct nonsense” in Darlington changing room policy before sudden departure The email reveals deep internal concern about the policy’s implications of allowing men into female staff changing rooms in the NHS. In the message, the executive wrote: “This strikes me as entirely self-inflicted politically correct nonsense which will end up in the tabloids. If the individual is not respectful of his/her/their female colleagues then I think we do need to take management action as opposed to asking the majority of the female staff to make alternative changing arrangements which I believe is the advice Tracey and Andrea have given based upon our current policies.” When the nurses went public with their story on June 23 after the Trust took no action, an emergency meeting was called on 28 June and on 1 July Noel Scanlon’s ‘retirement’ was suddenly announced by the Trust. The statement reveals that the policy was not only viewed as harmful but also internally contested at the highest levels of management. Andrea Williams, chief executive of the Christian Legal Centre, said: “This internal email confirms what we have long argued, that the policy forcing female nurses to undress in front of a biologically male colleague was not only unlawful, but also divided leadership at this NHS Trust. Some senior voices recognised the absurdity and injustice of the situation, but were quickly silenced, intimidated and moved on after raising concern.”

The trial continues in Newcastle this morning. See more on our website and in the Express today"

https://christianconcern.com/ccpressreleases/senior-nhs-executive-warned-of-politically-correct-nonsense-in-darlington-changing-room-policy-before-sudden-departure/

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/2128774/NHS-biological-sex-women-s-rights-trans

I've obviously got very old-fashioned knowledge of the NHS - when my mum worked for them she said the Matron's word was Law for everyone not just nurses, and she was so omnipresent she knew when someone farted at the other end of the hospital. Mum said the Hattie Jaques character in the Carry On films wasn't that far from reality.

It seems that the current use of the word Matron is that they are another band of senior nurse management. Certainly seems so if they are able to claim that they are too junior in role to know how to handle a certain situation.

TT

NF did you do anything with the email ?
SW no I had a convo with Claire and we decided to get HR advice
NF you remember a serious incident on another ward you didn’t know how to manage so thought better to leave to HR to address?
SW yes
NF when were you told HR was managing and what would they be doing ?
SW I didn’t know enough how to manage TW
NF not aware of the policy and leave to HR
SW yes.
NF told to leave in place. How often would you raise it?
SW Helen would say HR raising to formal process
NF when Ms Gregory would mention to you?
SW yes
NF would Ms Copper respond?
SW yes but not great at responding

TT

NF another meeting Claire Gregory there. Ms Gregory not happy , you asked her to keep you informed . You say it was difficult as you’d been told not to get involved. You were anxious a solution be found . By April things seemed worse? SW yes
NF in May you attended a meeting. You asked if policy was aligned and if I came in tomorrow and said I was male could I use the facilities?
I was told by Andrew and (?) yes , then said it doesn’t seem right.

TT

NF you seemed to be asking what does trans mean , hormones or just identifying however you feel. You say , maybe it’s our policies that are wrong, because that doesn’t seem right
SW I think that was me yes.
NF were you told anything this process was supposed to achieve?
SW no. I was told a formal process but nothing for me to get involved with

I seem to recall when DD was applying through UCAS for her BSc in Radiography, Teesside University (she didn't study there in the end but had applied to their Radiography course) did the ODP as a 2 year Diploma, it's now a 3 year BSc degree course.

Just checked Google and AI response suggests the HCPC only mandated a minimum bachelors degree for ODPs in September 24, so I am guessing Rose has a Diploma.

Thank you to @IDareSay for taking on reporting TTs at the moment.

On my iPad, if I go from the hearing to another website, eg TT or MN, I’m disconnected from the hearing.
I’m posting on my phone.

I’m just glad that there court has arranged an alternative route so (some) observers can view the hearing from a tablet or phone.

TT

NF you say AM and TA were looking at a space but you weren’t sure it was big enough. For those who objected to sharing the SSS? The 26 signatories?
SW it wasn’t unusual to look for somewhere in the area where people work eg on a ward this happens elsewhere
J it would be natural to look on the ward, common practice?
SW yes
NF the arrangement made was a meeting room emptied and lockers placed. Were you aware a shortage of lockers there?
SW don’t know - the lockers not personal but for the shift on the day. In the large CR people have their own but i understood this was to be temporary.

I am on an iPad using the app and can also view safari. The app gives Picture in Picture.

TT

NF major work required to make fire compliant. Reassured it would be done? SW I escalated to Helen , I couldn’t authorise.
NF whose responsibility was it?
SW not sure , maybe Helen then up to Felicity White ?
NF emails between you and Ms Copper (sp) you say hi Helen please see emails re works , fire door etc Stuart S . what is Claire’s thought ?
SW yes work place /facility.
NF you established ward 11 wasn’t suitable. Did you consider meeting with the C yourself?
SW No I didn’t , I was advised to remain impartial. I only discussed with Claire. NF you say statement you understand how people felt.
SW yes I was advised
NF you weren’t informed of outcome
SW no I wasn’t informed as never involved .

Thank you. I’ll investigate in the break when we’re WFTCHTJ.

Like another poster upthread, I have to leave and rejoin at that point to get the video rather than just sound.

Is this a defence witness? It's pretty damning evidence.

I like this witness. She’s coming across so far as honest and self reflective

I think so but the claimants’ counsel is asking the questions.

Who was giving SW the advice to "stay out of it"; one of the Andrews?

The make-shift changing room allocated to the complainants was not compliant with fire safety regulations.

TT

NF photo of posters put up. Also a poster ‘inclusive changing room’ on it. Who told you about the poster?
SW unsure maybe Claire.
NF you were to Ms Copper and she told you to leave it alone . She didn’t know who’d put it.
SW At the time Catherine Burn (sp) would have been dep Director nursing. said you were uncomfortable with first poster and she said yes to take down.
NF You had a convo with Beth H concerned about her job.
SW yes.
NF this is a later document , a public petition to report BH to medical council for transphobia. Did you see those complaints?
SW no
J any previous witness referred?
NF

Yes I know that but she's not doing the defence any favours is she? I'm surprised she wasn't called as a witness for the Claimants.

A petition was set up to report the complainant to the medical council.

TT

NF here are 4 separate complaints. (Reading). Correspondence BH responds. SC how is this relevant?
J from members of the public - what has it got to do with the case?
NF whether BH in fear of her job
J Ms Hutchinson told us she said they wouldn’t dare discipline her at this stage. What is the value of asking this witness whether Ms Hutchinson is right? What can this witness offer?

In my opinion, she’s not the only one of the respondents’ witnesses whose evidence doesn’t help the respondents’ case. One of many.

(I hope the possessive ‘ are in the right place 😃 )

She's straight up. There's no 'side' and no attempted arse covering.