"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 5

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct, AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6&7)
Thread 4, 29-Oct to 31-Oct, TA, AM (day 7) JB (day 8)

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, NHS trust HR.
AM – Andrew Moore, NHS Head of Workforce Experience
JB – Jillian Bailey, NHS Workforce Experience Manager

So it's not clear how Tuesday and Wednesday will be used?

Sue Williams needs to be heard. SC didn’t want her to go part-heard over Thursday: I imagine she may be heard on Tuesday or Wednesday.

SC was talking about submissions possibly being next Monday (10th) if they are able to hear Prof Phoenix (JP) on Friday, taking all day.
That would mean all the remaining witnesses would be on Monday - Wednesday this week. (See TT or my post at 17:32 above.)

SC said NF had put 4 hours down for JP, which is why I think the full day is allowed for her.

Do we know who the raining witnesses are though? There seems to be confusion over whether RH is a witness but surely they would have mentioned it by now if he were?

There's one who's coming in by remote from Scotland. Has anyone named them that anyone knows of? The lack of name intrigued me.

I think he meant We’ve already had one remote from Scotland, so having JP remote wouldn’t be a problem.

Ah, thanks. So the mystery of the missing Rose continues. Unless, of course, it's simply because of the way the case was dealt with and he was simply the catalyst and totally unimportant. I must be a bad person because I rather like that thought.

AFAIK: Sandra Watson, Anna Telfer, Sue Williams, RH(?) and JP

Morning all. Your daily housekeeping reminder, which may be particularly important if/when RH gives evidence this week. Please can online observers sit on their hands until a break for any comments not covered by TT. I include myself in this reminder. 😁

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Re RH's likely appearance at the tribunal, one line of questioning about his behaviour in the changing room was curtailed last week because 'that claim has been dropped'. The TT report didn't give details of what was dropped, but it may be that the remaining onea are purely about policy and how managers acted on policy - so RH may not be needed.

I think it would be quite risky for RH to give evidence.

Given the FWS ruling, it the legal position is that RH is unequivocally male and therefore should not be in the female CR. If he was a witness, he would have to be asked about his behaviour in the CR.

The nurses have so far come across as very credible and honest witnesses. At least one of them has said that RH asked her multiple times when she was going to get changed.

IANAL but it seems that RH would either have to deny doing this (perjury?) or admit that he did this (voyeurism? Sexual harassment?), both of which could land him in a pickle with both the NMC and possibly the law.

I wonder whether the NHS trust thinks it is better to quietly not defend the allegations about RH's behaviour than have it aired in court that they facilitated and de facto condoned (by ignoring staff complaints concerns) sexual harassment of their staff by another employee.

Thank you. So Anna Telfer is new Deputy Director of Nursing. Came to the Trust 5 months ago from an Associate Director post at Newcastle. Hmm.

But that means there are enough witnesses to fill up the time without an appearance from RH, if that's what has been decided.

NF said on Friday he may have no questions for Anna Telfour. So she could be done and dusted in less than 5 minutes.

Rather a basic question to be asking at this stage, but is Rose a nurse? I’ve heard Rose referred to in court as something like an Operating Theatres Something.

I don’t know if that’s a subgroup of nurses or something else, eg as midwives are, with a different regulatory body. So, in that example, the Royal College of Midwives rather than the Royal College of Nursing.

As AT has only been there for 5 months there seems to be no point in asking her anything.
I would actually like to know if RH had sat in the men's CF on his phone, stared at men and asked them when they were going to get their kit off - what the hospital would have done ? Or what the other men would have done.

I think he's a theatre nurse...

https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/nursing/roles-nursing/theatre-nurse

I'm around for a while so I'll post TT. We begin...

TT

J housekeeping ?
SC Anna Telfer sworn in now please then released

TT

J a member of public has requested witness statements. We have hard copies in room but can’t do this remotely. Members of press request was resolved. How deal with this particular one? Normal scenarios question if practical to have statement onto screen / not practical. Or witness should read aloud? Not efficient. Or hear from parties? Or some professional reps can assist by setting up a website on day 1 of the hearing? Or electronic copies? I’m hesitant to email given sensitivities.

Rose is an Operating Department Practitioner I believe.

ODPs (operating department practitioners) are allied health professionals (AHPs) who are based in operating theatres.

@NotNatacha RH is an Operating Department Practitioner, one of a number of protected titles for roles that are regulated by the Health & Care Professions Council (HCPC).

TT

What extent are representatives able to set this up?
NF We can discuss between solicitors.
SC we would also be hesitant about emailing J
take it on face value a genuine request. In Scotland this request would be academic. If person online and listening, watch this space for suggestions
SC correct one thing in Anna Telfer witness statement. Sworn in

TT

SC Anna Telfer - checking details are correct?
AT yes.
J now we hear from Sandra Watson next witness

That is such a good point. It highlights the inappropriateness of his behaviour beautifully.

TT

SC p 253 can you confirm your name and statement ?
AW yes.
NF Matron Elective and General Surgery?
SW My are inpatients and day surgery.
NF ward not theatre
SW ward 11 and DSU. Office on 3rd floor
NF how was your time divided?
SW non clinical between 4 areas, visit staff, check in with managers, office based staff. Visit wards most days it depends. On band 8.
NF Manager is Helen Copper (sp?) . Looking after staff wellbeing?
SA I more regularly manage the ward managers not the staff

bit wierd to go all the way to tribunal to simply say 'yes that's correct, bye now'

TT

NF if they came with a safeguarding issue would you help.
SW yes or escalate
NF re this case presence of Rose?
SW When the first letter was sent not long after my new role. I raised it with Helen I felt i couldn’t manage
NF did you raise H&S?
SW No I was junior in the role
NF would you use the CR? You encountered Rose once?
SW yes
NF Email from Claire Gregory (ward manager) Feb 2024.