"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 4

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct, AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6)

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, witness for the respondents, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, witness for the respondents, NHS trust HR.

This makes me wonder what her imagined version of Rose is like, and whether she is in for a shock.

Nah. She knows exactly what Rose looks like. It's hard to get someone to see something when their job depends upon them staying in the dark. If TA admitted she had seen RH or a photo of RH (goddam, that's one big man) her evidence would be even more fragile. She had to distance herself.

If she was horribly upset by seeing herself written up in the media then she saw one of the articles with his photo included. She knows, it's just that she can't know know.

The person I'm really really hoping reads these threads is Wes Streeting. I also hope he's following the tribunal with his head in his hands in sheer disbelief at the shit shower of managers the NHS employs.

They must have lawyers available that can interpret the law.

The witness today did get legal advice before speaking to the nurses. We don't hear what that advice is but it's highly likely whatever she told the nurses at the meeting reflected it.

I would prefer to see the actual transcript than rely on Daily Mail's extract.

Even if it's accurate there may be a context such as someone said something transphobic.

There is a difference between getting legal advice and following it. As Angela Rayner found out.

We're in the room but it hasn't been unlocked yet.

What I can never understand about these tribunals is why the Trusts put up such a fight when it’s obvious they can’t win. If SP or the Darlington nurses lose, they’ll appeal anyway. By dragging these cases out, the Trusts are effectively subjecting their own employees to years of legal wrangling.

I also don’t understand why members of the respective boards aren’t called to give evidence, though I admit I’m not entirely sure how tribunal procedures work.

everything is transphobic according to TRAs including suggesting Tyler couldn't change with the women

Giving evidence now is

AM - Andrew Moore, Head of Workforce Experience at Trust

No, it's a common way of asking someone to put themselves in your shoes. It's not personal at all.

Andrew Moore who can't even respect the tribunal enough to do up his shirt collar and tie properly. That is bugging me already.

I guess we will never get to see that. TA's reaction was so strong it makes me think it must have been reasonably accurate.

Yes, we saw this in the Peggie case, when DR Upton pretty much admitted that there was no way Sandie could have raised her concerns without it being offensive and transphobic.

@NewInks the 8 complainants will have refused to settle prior to this ET so that the whole thing can be aired in public. That NHS Trust will have been desperate to stop this reaching an ET.

Ah okay, that makes sense. I wouldn’t settle either if I were the nurses.

Bugging me as well now you've pointed it out.

There's a reason why the concept of The DOGE Department has had significant traction in the UK. It's because so many people have had first hand dealings with people in jobs who behave like this.

I've been saying for years on MN women need to put in official complaints for things more often cos otherwise it allows managers to get away with shit and say "there's no problem, because no one has complained" in the style of Comical Ali.

Also it undermines the Trust attempting to argue that these things were never said because they don't appear in TA's (retrospectively written) "notes"

From TT

NF Contents of statements - I want to pick up a few points
Can you give an example of staff network groups?
AM around protected characteristics eg disability

NF transitioning in workplace policy. Let’s look at that. What is meant by ‘ownership’?
AM they’re developed collectively . Subject expert then go through a chain up to board .

TA has 4 kids, public googleable knowledge, last one during lockdown - she must be on mumsnet and aware of these threads.
Speaking as someone with an HR / EDI background (and thankfully got fed up and changed careers), I wish I could say I'm surprised by this but I'm not. I saw many colleagues just wing it and get promoted quickly despite knowing SFA

TT

J we’ll hear from Andrew Moore next.

NF Contents of statements - I want to pick up a few points Can you give an example of staff network groups?
AM around protected characteristics eg disability

NF transitioning in workplace policy. Let’s look at that. What is meant by ‘ownership’?
AM they’re developed collectively . Subject expert then go through a chain up to board .

Or the precise opposite!

We now know the comment about her being personally comfortable changing in front of men was taken out of context.

She was asked and answered. It wasn't out of the blue or intended to be dismissive.

Also she testified that she had offered to speak to Rose directly about using a different changing room. Which wasn't reported as far as I recall.

Oh ditto @NotNatacha

I'll gladly leave it to you. 😁

TA's (retrospectively written) "notes" stated things that were clearly not said in the meeting. It's why when asked to confirm that the transcript accurately reflected the recording she declined to do that and also was unwilling to give examples of any errors she'd found in the transcript.

I think the point is that the nurses aren’t looking for £ which might be more normal in an employment tribunal and there could be a negotiation around how much to settle for. The only solution the nurses want is Rose and any other TIMs out of their changing room. Which is the one thing the NHS won’t do.