"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 3

[AuthorisedCat]

Link to Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, evidence from KD (Day 1) and BH (Day 2).

Link to Thread 2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5432103-darlington-nurses-vs-county-durham-and-darlington-nhs-trust-tribunal-thread-2

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The NHS trust’s HR department dismissed the nurses’ concerns, stating they should “broaden their mindset” and “be educated”. More details can be found at Sex Matters and at Christian Concern who are supporting the nurses via the CLC.
The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online, requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets
The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.
Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, second claimant to give evidence
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
Other abbreviations:
WFTCHTJ – Waiting For The Conference Host To Join
ET - Employment Tribunal
DMH/H – Hospital, Darlington Memorial Hospital
CR/CF - changing room or facilities
IX - internal investigation
XX – cross examination

This is a very long hour.

And the unprecedented nature of this didn't at all make him think that this required more attention and perhaps special focus?

Uh-oh. There's an email chain. Things go pearshaped when there's an NHS email chain in an ET.

NF - this has attachment the bottom of the email chain - from Nr Twist. You received this email . COG ‘I would suggest Andrew deals with these ‘ . Who sent this email?
AT - I think it’s Steve Crossland.
NF - ‘H & S raised by me ‘. You say TITWP policy has its own impact included. But isn’t this about a H & S assessment?

but it’s all Bethanie’s fault!

It's not a bug, it's a feature.

Why would anyone mediocre choose to work in an organization where they were accountable for anything, when there are so many alternatives places to spend your workday?

NF - you don’t seem to have responded to that at all.
AT - no
NF - do you accept that something went very wrong with how the trust addressed the concerns ?

AT - I don’t accept that , the trust was trying to deal with
NF - you complained about the claimants eg media presence. But their complaint was not grappled with in any material way until April /May 2025 was it?

What does TITWP (titwhoop?) stand for, please?

‘I would suggest Andrew deals with these'
could become code for 'Let's do absolutely nothing about these'!

Missed this morning is AT still being cross examined!

NF - and even after that the policy was briefly taken down but not addressed.
AT - as far as I was concerned , the trust had a policy for someone with a GI. After SC ruling the policy was withdrawn. There is no guidance however for trusts at this time. Guidance in draft but hasn’t yet been published and we are waiting for guidance.

Transitioning In The Workplace Policy. But I prefer "Titwhoop"

Are they not consulting with their legal department???

Am I awful to say that I'm enjoying it a lot more than he is? We've all met people like him, but very few of us ever get to watch them having to explain all the nasty petty things they've done for the sake of 'policy'

For some reason I keep thinking of that old joke about 'there's one poor lion hasn't got a Christian' and mentally identiying my new favourite male barrister with Shere Khan in Disney's the Jungle Book. Can anyone explain it to me?

I'm fascinated by the implication that the NHS England personnel were telling the Trust that their treatment of the nurses was wrong given NHS England's approach for it's own staff is that TWAW and can use the female toilets and changing rooms.

Did he say GI? Because that could include a woman with a female GI who didn't want to change in front of a man. Maybe he meant transitioning staff or a GRC?

Either way, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

J - do you know if there was a trust in the country that had the guidance? Share info re policies ?
AT - yes eg a regional meeting of HR directors.
J - natural isn’t it. Someone is going to ask ‘where do I start’ . Is there another trust that has a policy different to yours? Web of contacts but the policy is made by the trust ?

After SC ruling the policy was withdrawn. There is no guidance however for trusts at this time. Guidance in draft but hasn’t yet been published and we are waiting for guidance.
So the Trust is still not implementing the law as asserted in the SC ruling?
'It's all too complicated'🙄

Not minuted. How convenient.

I'd like to think other NHS trusts are aware of this case and following along, but who knows? They might all have their own incurious, incompetent AT heading up HR:

Would be a lot shorter if he attempted to answer any of the questions!

'It's all too complicated'🙄

Ooh, I had that on my bingo card!

<stamps dabber firmly>

I think it's the transitioning at work policy - not sure of the exact initials.

I know it's not going to have managed to ping the radar of this witness, but why is it never recognised by HR/Legal that in this lovely 'people with GI should use the facilities of their choice' there is a very obvious different and disproportionate impact upon women employees than upon men? On a sexed basis?

Even Isla Bumba had as a figleaf that she'd checked with other NHS Trusts that they held the same mad views as NHS Fife. AT didn't even check that.