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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 4

666 replies

ickky · 24/10/2025 09:14

The Tribunal has now finished and we await the judgement.

Abbreviations:

C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
AL - Andrew R Letton VP People Shared Services Leonardo - respondent witness

Tribunal Tweets coverage here

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5416903-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-29th-september-10am?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5420656-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-thread-2

Thread 3
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5421183-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-thread-3

Kelly vs Leonardo UK Ltd

Tribunal will consider workplace toilet provision

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

OP posts:
Thread gallery
25
Alpacajigsaw · 03/12/2025 23:51
  1. The claimant submitted that men and trans women are legally indistinguishable. The claimant believes that people do not have a gender or gender identity and as such a man cannot identify as a woman. However she is aware that some people believe that they do have a gender identity at variance to their sex, that they may undergo a process which they believe reassigns their gender, and that this is recognised in law as a protected characteristic. It is not therefore accepted that the claimant believes that there is nothing to distinguish them in law.

wtf is this? Has she heard of FWS? There IS nothing to distinguish them in law.

socialdilemmawhattodo · 04/12/2025 00:10

Legobricksinatub · 03/12/2025 21:47

A reminder that Lammy is doing away with Jury trials and leaving the decision on the innocence of guilt of accused people to judges such as these.

There are many trial situations where a jury are quite frankly incapable to understand even the basic facts. Eg complex financial services trials that may last for years. They are definitely best served by a judge and/or panel who at least know what LIBOR or a derivative is.

GallantKumquat · 04/12/2025 00:34

What's troubling to me is that TRAs, in their retrenchment, seems to have changed focus. The focus at a legal level doesn't seem to be as much on TWAW, the SC ruling was always going to make that a qualified statement. Instead the focus is that really we live in a gendered (post-sex) world and we need to get on with it. This ruling shows that that has a high degrees of resonance with judges. Am I projecting this or do others get the sense too?

I thought NC's case was well re-prepared and well communicated to the judge, who didn't appear to be hostile and that this would be more or less a slam dunk. There wasn't anything particularly innovative about interpretation, in fact it didn't really even depend on SC ruling because whether a GC was held was never at issue. Put differently, if the transwoman in question had simply been a man who identified as a man, he should still be allowed presumptive access, unless a large enough proportion of woman complain. And even then.... If this ruling would be generalized, it would be essentially impossible to ever win GC case again to enforce SSS so long as providers are careful with their un-sexed language and passive about enforcement. This is in fact exactly what Bridget Phillipson's department argued. I'm skeptical of my doomer perspective - lots of highs and lows for the week so it would be natural to over-react to bad news - so I'm curious how other appraise the ruling.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 04/12/2025 00:45

DrProfessorYaffle · 03/12/2025 21:51

She considered it as tantamount to permitting any man to access the female
toilets because in her view a trans woman and a biological man are materially
the same. She equated this with making the toilets mixed sex (i.e. unisex)
which she considered to be an awful, terrible idea because she has the right
to use the toilet without a male being there

This has JUST BLOWN MY MIND.

But the judge also describes a man who is thinking about changing gender a trans woman - how is this man materially different to a biological man?

CrocsNotDocs · 04/12/2025 01:14

I hate to say this, and may get some well deserved flack, but if I was appearing before a tribunal or court on a sex realist or free speech matter, I would cringe if I saw a female judge.

Female judiciary members seem much more vulnerable to leaving the law flailing about while falling for be kind, what does it hurt bollocks than male members.

Obviously this isn’t across the board (look at Maya Forstater’s original case judge who was male) but I groaned when I saw female judges for Maria Kelly and Sara Morrison. I’m also anxious about Sal Grover’s appeal in Australia for the same reason.

I really hate saying this and maybe should hand in my feminist card, but the most ardent TRA nonsense seems to infect female academics and members of the judiciary at a disproportionate rate.

Takes hat and leaves room.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 04/12/2025 01:31

As counterpoint, didn't Jo Phoenix have a female judge? And that judgement tore the OU to shreds.

CrocsNotDocs · 04/12/2025 01:40

NoBinturongsHereMate · 04/12/2025 01:31

As counterpoint, didn't Jo Phoenix have a female judge? And that judgement tore the OU to shreds.

Yes she did. The absolutely marvellous Jennifer Young.

DustyWindowsills · 04/12/2025 01:40

CrocsNotDocs · 04/12/2025 01:14

I hate to say this, and may get some well deserved flack, but if I was appearing before a tribunal or court on a sex realist or free speech matter, I would cringe if I saw a female judge.

Female judiciary members seem much more vulnerable to leaving the law flailing about while falling for be kind, what does it hurt bollocks than male members.

Obviously this isn’t across the board (look at Maya Forstater’s original case judge who was male) but I groaned when I saw female judges for Maria Kelly and Sara Morrison. I’m also anxious about Sal Grover’s appeal in Australia for the same reason.

I really hate saying this and maybe should hand in my feminist card, but the most ardent TRA nonsense seems to infect female academics and members of the judiciary at a disproportionate rate.

Takes hat and leaves room.

Don't hand in your feminist card just yet. My husband instinctively gets that males of any identity will leap at a chance to gawp at women in a state of undress. My female friends don't understand this at all.

Boiledbeetle · 04/12/2025 02:05

Watchingfromadistance · 03/12/2025 14:04

Bloody hell. Missed this coming out.

I'm glad Maria is appealing it.

"Maria is planning to appeal this judgment.

The good thing about losing at first instance is that if you win at a higher level it creates a precedent.

Onwards and upwards!

(But I know she is going to be feeling pretty miserable today)"

x.com/MForstater/status/1996231552376676672?t=uiAEdC3e_aBy27znYIvGnw&s=19

ItsCoolForCats · 04/12/2025 07:16

CrocsNotDocs · 04/12/2025 01:14

I hate to say this, and may get some well deserved flack, but if I was appearing before a tribunal or court on a sex realist or free speech matter, I would cringe if I saw a female judge.

Female judiciary members seem much more vulnerable to leaving the law flailing about while falling for be kind, what does it hurt bollocks than male members.

Obviously this isn’t across the board (look at Maya Forstater’s original case judge who was male) but I groaned when I saw female judges for Maria Kelly and Sara Morrison. I’m also anxious about Sal Grover’s appeal in Australia for the same reason.

I really hate saying this and maybe should hand in my feminist card, but the most ardent TRA nonsense seems to infect female academics and members of the judiciary at a disproportionate rate.

Takes hat and leaves room.

I listened to an episode of the Crime Agents podcast recently. They were discussing the abysmal conviction rates for rape. The guest was a DCI who does a lot of work in this area.

She said she believe conviction rates would improve if rape case were t
heard without a jury. She said female jurors in particular are less likely to believe victims. How depressing 🙁

Alpacajigsaw · 04/12/2025 07:25

What I thought was particularly outrageous in this judgment was the comments about the unworkability of toilet access.

She basically said that toilet access on the basis of biological sex is unworkable because you can’t tell someone’s sex by looking at them.

It is unworkable on the basis of certificated sex as you can’t ask anyone if they have a GRC.

So may as well let anyone in who says they’re living as a woman

Completely glossed over the fact that whether someone is “living as a woman” is completely irrelevant to their access to a single sex service.

To me these kind of comments tend to show an agenda. Straight out of the TRA playbook.

So let’s not bother with any laws then shall we as some of them may be difficult to enforce. Where does it stop. Speeding? Murder?

SexRealismBeliefs · 04/12/2025 07:40

I’ve been pondering about dear Michelle since she clearly isn’t the greatest of logical minds.

She was at MacRoberts LLP - a Scottish law firm for at least 8 years I think - I can date her there between 2010 and 2018 (probably up to her Judical appointment in 2020.

Published docs 2010 to 2014
https://www.lexology.com/firms/700/michellesutherland

Legal Director by 2016
https://www.scottishfinancialnews.com/articles/blog-the-enterprise-act-2016-2

She had got to the level of Consultant at MacRoberts by 2018.

Maria Kelly’s Solicitor- was senior to her in a small team during this entire period

Katy Wedderburn of ‘gunnercooke llp’ would have been senior to her during that time being a partner in the employment team at MacRoberts for that period.

https://www.lawscot.org.uk/people/katy-wedderburn/

Katy was partner from 2013 to 2023 at MacRoberts per her LinkedIn.

Maybe it’s just bad blood! The type that can’t be wiped away with a bit of toilet roll. Katy the bad old TERF and Michelle who thinks women and men in the dresses are the same. This will show her!

Anyone with the ability to WayBack Machine macroberts.com could definitely turn up stuff. It’s on there.

Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 4
Largesso · 04/12/2025 07:44

CrocsNotDocs · 04/12/2025 01:14

I hate to say this, and may get some well deserved flack, but if I was appearing before a tribunal or court on a sex realist or free speech matter, I would cringe if I saw a female judge.

Female judiciary members seem much more vulnerable to leaving the law flailing about while falling for be kind, what does it hurt bollocks than male members.

Obviously this isn’t across the board (look at Maya Forstater’s original case judge who was male) but I groaned when I saw female judges for Maria Kelly and Sara Morrison. I’m also anxious about Sal Grover’s appeal in Australia for the same reason.

I really hate saying this and maybe should hand in my feminist card, but the most ardent TRA nonsense seems to infect female academics and members of the judiciary at a disproportionate rate.

Takes hat and leaves room.

I think patriarchy has always relied on women for its enforcement and as feminism started making progress the women who uphold it were allowed into different spheres but only if they were willing to uphold it. We see very few women with any radical viewpoints making it up the greasy pole to positions of authority unless they hold their wheesht. Some will be quiet feminists but many will be, and probably unconsciously, so steeped in upholding the societal structures that uphold the patriarchy they have no real sense that their ability to value women is totally informed by that — including themselves I imagine.

I’ve worked in various institutions across 40 years and the feminist thinkers are seldom the ones made room for at the top.

So I don’t think you need hand in your card — feminism has always been about acknowledging that being a woman doesn’t guarantee a feminist position. Women can be as patriarchal as men even if they are ‘allowed’, in a limited way, professional roles.

It can also, in my view, result in a punitive approach to women holding out their soup bowl and asking for a reasonable share of the soup (rather than more) ie get back in your place woman! And I feel this judge is doing that.

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2025 07:53

There is absolutely nothing in this judgement that seems consistent with the SC ruling.

It HAS to go to appeal.

The troubling thing is now, even if it's overruled and regarded as an absolutely batshit decision, there's now incentive to force so many more of these cases through court in order to produce more bats hit results like this.

It fundamentally undermines trust in the justice system if this is ultimately going to be the way it goes.

Peregrina · 04/12/2025 08:13

I really hate saying this and maybe should hand in my feminist card, but the most ardent TRA nonsense seems to infect female academics and members of the judiciary at a disproportionate rate.

Yes, the old thing of succeeding in what was and is still a man's world by being more macho than the men.

ItsCoolForCats · 04/12/2025 08:18

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2025 07:53

There is absolutely nothing in this judgement that seems consistent with the SC ruling.

It HAS to go to appeal.

The troubling thing is now, even if it's overruled and regarded as an absolutely batshit decision, there's now incentive to force so many more of these cases through court in order to produce more bats hit results like this.

It fundamentally undermines trust in the justice system if this is ultimately going to be the way it goes.

Hopefully it will get overturned on appeal, but, in the meantime, TRAs will be using this judgement as leverage in their workplace to keep using female facilities.

We will have to see what the outcome is in the GLP judicial review and what that says about toilets..back and forth we go 🙁

thirdfiddle · 04/12/2025 08:21

alsoFanOfNaomi · 03/12/2025 16:13

The arithmetic works, if the underlying stats and assumptions are true - a big if, of course. As follows:

If men commit 90% of assaults (is that all??), women 10%, this means a man is 9 times more likely than a woman to commit an assault. Say we have 1000 users of whom 995 are women and 5 men (i.e. 0.5% of users are male). Say each woman commits x assaults, so there are 995 woman-caused assaults, then each man commits 9x assaults, so there are 45 man-caused assaults. So in total there are 1040 assaults of which 995 are woman caused: 995/1040 is indeed 96% (rounding to nearest percent).

The arithmetic works, but this is the same logical messup that TRAs keep making.

They're talking about the proportion of assaults that are expected to be carried out by a group, when they should be talking about the risk of a member of that group assaulting compared to the risk of someone in the general population assaulting.

Taking it to an extreme - suppose Rapist Bob is on the staff. The probability Rapist Bob assaults someone if he's allowed in the women's loos is 100%. If there are enough members of staff it may be that Rapist Bob's one known assault is still a small minority of assaults. Rapist Bob says you should let me in the women's loos because I personally will commit a small proportion of assaults, there's only one of me and there are thousands of not-me. Would you let him in? Obviously not.

Can one appeal a case on judge not understanding statistics properly?

(As per usual. it is not a just a question of risk there is also the certainty of impact on women's privacy and comfort.)

TransSister · 04/12/2025 08:24

It's not like women in engineering haven't come across the full range of men characters.
The charmers, the bullies, the kind ones, the shy ones, the weirdos in a good way, the weirdos in a bad way. From being surrounded by them in A level maths to having to pick up the slack in degree group projects. Before you even get your first professional job you've heard all the chat when they don't care that you are listening.
I absolutely get what Maria said about it being a refuge. It's a chance to take a deep breathe, collect yourself and then get back out there. And historically because so few women work in engineering you have an expectation of privacy and being the sole user, it's not the interval at a theatre rush. Which also means that you don't have a group to witness the behaviour of users out of the ordinary.

Largesso · 04/12/2025 08:29

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2025 07:53

There is absolutely nothing in this judgement that seems consistent with the SC ruling.

It HAS to go to appeal.

The troubling thing is now, even if it's overruled and regarded as an absolutely batshit decision, there's now incentive to force so many more of these cases through court in order to produce more bats hit results like this.

It fundamentally undermines trust in the justice system if this is ultimately going to be the way it goes.

IANAL but if a J is later shredded by an EAT judgment would that curb it, potentially?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/12/2025 08:30

ItsCoolForCats · 04/12/2025 08:18

Hopefully it will get overturned on appeal, but, in the meantime, TRAs will be using this judgement as leverage in their workplace to keep using female facilities.

We will have to see what the outcome is in the GLP judicial review and what that says about toilets..back and forth we go 🙁

They’re rejoicing over it on Reddit, and they think that it will result in a binding decision that TIMs can be allowed to use women only spaces if she appeals. Many of them aren’t the brightest, but it is always a risk.

Largesso · 04/12/2025 08:32

thirdfiddle · 04/12/2025 08:21

The arithmetic works, but this is the same logical messup that TRAs keep making.

They're talking about the proportion of assaults that are expected to be carried out by a group, when they should be talking about the risk of a member of that group assaulting compared to the risk of someone in the general population assaulting.

Taking it to an extreme - suppose Rapist Bob is on the staff. The probability Rapist Bob assaults someone if he's allowed in the women's loos is 100%. If there are enough members of staff it may be that Rapist Bob's one known assault is still a small minority of assaults. Rapist Bob says you should let me in the women's loos because I personally will commit a small proportion of assaults, there's only one of me and there are thousands of not-me. Would you let him in? Obviously not.

Can one appeal a case on judge not understanding statistics properly?

(As per usual. it is not a just a question of risk there is also the certainty of impact on women's privacy and comfort.)

You make good points. As others have noted above, NC was probably in receipt of the judgment before resigning as chair of SM. I suspect she’s getting ready to go in all gun’s blazing. I don’t know the actual wording but you can appeal on the judgment being outlandish and points of law which seems to be the case here.

JeannieDark · 04/12/2025 08:32

I’ve only half been following these threads but I’m so confused at how she lost, it seemed really obvious to me that she was right and I don’t know if that’s my own bias or if something has gone horribly wrong somehow.

Alpacajigsaw · 04/12/2025 08:39

I looked at the judgment last night.

I can about get her reasoning on the 1992 Regs and direct discrimination

On the harassment and indirect discrimination not at all.

contemporaneousnote · 04/12/2025 08:42

I thought this was an interesting analysis from *Natashaetc on Twitter, Michael Foran said he agreed with her analysis and would comment further over the next few weeks.
*This judgment is not only astonishing, but profoundly flawed. Not because a tribunal ruled against a claimant (that happens in cases) but because of the linguistic gymnastics required to pretend the Equality Act doesn’t say what it does.

Sex is a protected characteristic. The Supreme Court confirmed in For Women Scotland that the terms “man” and “woman” in the Equality Act mean biological sex. Yet this tribunal effectively declared biological sex “unknowable” in workplace toilets – therefore legally irrelevant. That isn’t interpretation. That’s a quiet attempt to delete sex from the law entirely – and doing so from a lower court isn’t merely overreach, it’s a grasp halfway round the globe.

The judge did not merely err in law; they dismissed women’s unique privacy needs with the claim that there’s no greater need for bodily privacy than when a man defecates. There is no legal principle behind that assertion, no evidential basis, and no right for a tribunal to plant a speculative flag in contested social theory and call it law. Centuries of safeguarding cannot be waved away for convenience.

The misreading of discrimination law is equally extraordinary. The judge leaned heavily on the fact Ms Kelly was the only woman who complained – as if discrimination were a popularity contest. The Supreme Court in Essop v Home Office (2017) made it absolutely clear – in indirect discrimination claims you do not need every affected person to object, and you do not need to explain why the disadvantage exists. Group disadvantage can exist whether women speak up or remain silent – especially when silence is driven by fear of consequence.

And the argument that “she kept using the toilet so there’s no deterrent effect”? Please. That’s the discrimination equivalent of telling a wheelchair user who struggles up steps that they must be fine without a ramp. Putting up with discrimination doesn’t mean the discrimination ceases to exist.

A tribunal’s job is to apply Parliament’s statute and follow binding appellate authority. It is not to rewrite the definition of “woman” based on the judge’s personal sociology. The moment biological sex is treated as optional, sex based rights collapse – without a single democratic or binding legal mandate to remove them.

This judgment didn’t just get the law wrong. It leapt over the line into policymaking – giving more weight to non-binding guidance than to binding precedent. That’s why the appeal isn’t just justified – it’s essential.

Women’s rights cannot depend on whether a tribunal finds our bodies too “inconvenient” to acknowledge.*