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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 4

666 replies

ickky · 24/10/2025 09:14

The Tribunal has now finished and we await the judgement.

Abbreviations:

C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
AL - Andrew R Letton VP People Shared Services Leonardo - respondent witness

Tribunal Tweets coverage here

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5416903-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-29th-september-10am?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5420656-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-thread-2

Thread 3
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5421183-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-thread-3

Kelly vs Leonardo UK Ltd

Tribunal will consider workplace toilet provision

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

OP posts:
Thread gallery
25
Keeptoiletssafe · 11/12/2025 10:04

I think the differences between toilets and changing rooms is there’s a longer history of misdeeds in toilets. That’s why there’s more about toilets (and specific sections were added) in the sexual offences act. Yet more has been added with voyeurism laws mentioning toilets and changing rooms. Part of it is cameras and phones. But it’s all to do with men’s behaviour. Laws are having to ‘keep up’ with the changes in society and their detriment to women.

Women's facilities: Toilet used to have attendants and men were barred. Changing rooms use to have more attendants and men were barred. The legislation is trying to keep up and failing.

RandomHypatia · 11/12/2025 10:09

SexRealismBeliefs · 11/12/2025 05:31

I’m sorry to hear that. That’s really tough.

Not being flippant, and I know it’s hard to have to do. As soon as a man appears in whatever form you leave and go and write to your manager, I exercise my Article 8 rights in respect of the toilets. No further comment required.

And please be in no doubt - we agree. We’re just ruminating on appealable points.

If I were older and nearer retirement age, or in a more senior position, or didn't have a school age child I would. At it is, even though I know I'm letting down other women, I don't think I would complain if I saw a man in there. I can't risk the potential repercussions.

Boiledbeetle · 11/12/2025 10:27

SexRealismBeliefs · 11/12/2025 08:38

Why toilets matter!

The suggestion in Kelly's and in Peggies case is that toilets are pretty much the same for men and women and you get undressed to the same extent. Aside from a long diatribe on jumpsuits, formal dresses and trying to pee in wedding dresses I wanted to see if could articulate why women need more privacy at the toilets.

139 MK stated in evidence that women by reason of menstruation, pregnancy (or lactation) and menopause have greater need of privacy than men when using the toilet and washing their hands

There was no evidence beyond MK’s own testimony that women experiencing menstruation, lactation and menopause sought greater privacy in the toilets than women who were urinating or than men who were defecating.

My view is this an appealable point as men do not require the level of privacy women do.

Consider men actually use public urinals. There is no equivalent for women.

Men use the loos mostly to pee, otherwise to poop. Its a binary use. Any other use isn't suitable for work. And in the vast majority of cases men will stand to urinate. Women need privacy from men while washing their hands while using the toilet or in the general space of the toilet room. Women's bodies and functions are markedly different to men's.

Every single time a women has to urinate she has to remove all her clothing on her bottom half to expose her labia and rectum area.

Women at work will be managing menstruation. Later comes age related menopausal flooding. In many of these cases women need privacy to change their clothes and need privacy to navigate between toilets and sinks.

If women use menstrual cups, emptying in toilet and rinsing in the sink is common. The Workplace Regs ensure that sanitary disposal in stalls but they didn't consider impact of moon cups/ re-usable sanitary wear. Sinks are required for this use.

Statistically women are more likely to urinary tract infections (UTIs) due to anatomy, leading to frequent urination and discomfort. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8077804/

Women are more likely to suffer from IBS and require frequent access to loos in an emergency - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2693852/

In the UK more than 1.5 million women suffer from endometriosis. This causes painful periods that interfere with everyday life, havy menstrual bleeding, pinful bowel movements/when having a poo, pain when urinating/peeing. https://www.endometriosis-uk.org/what-is-endometriosis

The Workplace Regulation 1992 was enacted to provide separate sex toilet provisions. The later Eq Act 2010 layered over another element of protection for pregnant and maternity protection, Schedule 22 of the EqA (this can only be afforded to biological women). A trans identified male cannot ever require additional protection that this affords. And he can never be afforded the rights under Sch 22 pregnancy and maternity.

Toilets are a significant space for women who are pregnant or in their maternity period. So even if the Judge came to the view that the sinks can be mixed sex within the wider toilet room they then need to view that decision through the Schedule 22 lens.

It is within judicial knowledge that women may require to use toilets as the only private space to undertake activities that are related to pregnancy and maternity within the workplace.

Women who are seeking to get pregnant may endure long periods attempting to get pregnant via IVF and require somewhere to carry out daily injections. Other women may be using ovulation predictor kits to assess when fertile for a successful pregnancy. Women have specific dates and times for pregnancy tests for use under IVF and that may well need to be scheduled during a work period.

Women often experience spotting or bleeding during pregnancy. When women start experiencing a miscarriage, the experience vaginal bleeding which is often accompanied with sudden pains and contraction like sensations. The toilet is where women go to investigate what is happening & navigate concerns about potential miscarriage.

Women have done and continue to experience miscarriage at work. 25% of pregnancies end in miscarriage and can happen at any time. With some 250,000 miscarriages – one in four pregnancies – occurring in the UK each year, most workforces have staff that have been or may be affected. (https://www.wihb.scot.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Miscarriage-and-the-Workplace-1.pdf)

This is why women suffer direct discrimination if bio men are allowed to use the ladies, compared to bio women using the mens. And why the sinks need to be included in the envelope of the toilet space as they are essential to women's privacy.

Anyone else care to add to the list?

All I can add is that I've been present when a girl with excruciating stomach pain entered the toilets alone and exited the toilets with a baby in her arms. She hadn't even known she was pregnant.

So you can add give birth to your list.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 11/12/2025 10:28

What percentage of sexual crimes end up in a conviction?

Overall, I don't know. For rapes it's around 0.25%.

Yes, I have got the decimal point in the right place.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 11/12/2025 10:30

RandomHypatia · 11/12/2025 10:09

If I were older and nearer retirement age, or in a more senior position, or didn't have a school age child I would. At it is, even though I know I'm letting down other women, I don't think I would complain if I saw a man in there. I can't risk the potential repercussions.

Based on the judgment from the SP trial.

The judge seems to be suggesting that a single complaint from a biological woman that their SSS toilet is no longer single sex is sufficient for a trans woman (biological man) to be excluded.

From RandomHypatia's experience, even if the space is single sex (i.e. no biological men are present) there is still the fear that a biological may be present or may enter at any time.

Based on the SP judgment, would it be acceptable for a woman to object to biological men entering the single sex space even if one was not present?

Does the objection to males in the SSS need to be reactive or can a proactive objection be made?

As visitors often use toilet facilities, how could an employer know if a non-employee may object to biological males in female toilets?

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 11/12/2025 10:33

NoBinturongsHereMate · 11/12/2025 10:28

What percentage of sexual crimes end up in a conviction?

Overall, I don't know. For rapes it's around 0.25%.

Yes, I have got the decimal point in the right place.

So a judge telling us, in their judgment, that the vetting process somehow significantly reduces the likelihood of a sexual assault is just tosh.

There may be a small reduction in the pool of offenders but statistically the reduction in risk is insignificant

SexRealismBeliefs · 11/12/2025 10:42

Boiledbeetle · 11/12/2025 10:27

All I can add is that I've been present when a girl with excruciating stomach pain entered the toilets alone and exited the toilets with a baby in her arms. She hadn't even known she was pregnant.

So you can add give birth to your list.

Thank you - hadn't considered that https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5yjd4vw417o

Baby Henry wide awake looking directly at the camera. He is resting on the arm of his grandmother who is wearing a red denim jacket. You can only see her arm. Henry is wearing a vest and a cream bodysuit. He has a tiny wrinkled forehead and is looking...

Hidden pregnancy ends in birth at Lowestoft football toilet

A woman, unaware she was pregnant, gives birth at a memorial football match.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5yjd4vw417o

SternJoyousBeev2 · 11/12/2025 11:04

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 11/12/2025 10:33

So a judge telling us, in their judgment, that the vetting process somehow significantly reduces the likelihood of a sexual assault is just tosh.

There may be a small reduction in the pool of offenders but statistically the reduction in risk is insignificant

It’s as ridiculous as saying that because someone has a clean DBS certificate that a youth organisation can abandon all other safeguarding processes.

Keeptoiletssafe · 11/12/2025 11:04

Diabetes, epilepsy and heart conditions are all affected by the menstrual cycle.

Keeptoiletssafe · 11/12/2025 11:05

Also been meaning to put this on here. With the Fife case going on, I put this on that thread. It’s also relevant here.

This is an oldie but a goodie from Robin Moira White:
It is, I find, an advantage to be very old, in that I started work in the rail industry before the 1992 Regulations were in force. The rail industry was sexist and misogynistic.
Provision for female staff was 'OK' around office blocks and passenger stations for obvious reasons, but even in the middle 1980's, a decade after the Sex Discrimination Act had been passed, facilities for women were woeful at many depots and engineering facilities. A few women had been seen in the rail industry during WW2 but the return of the men from fighting had seen them displaced and not replaced. The arguments were often circular. Female apprentices were not employed because there were no female facilities and female facilities were not provided because there were no female apprentices or artisans. Such was the position in may 'traditional' industries. I vividly remember that at one train depot we visited as a group of management trainees, the male trainees 'guarding' the male facilities after checking they were empty so that our female colleagues could use them.
And this is what the 1992 Regulations were designed to deal with. This was the problem they were designed to solve, and that is why they refer to male and female facilities and the PROVISION of facilities, not their policing.
Trans people were not on the legislative horizon in 1992. P v Cornwall and the 1999
Regulations which gave protection to trans people in UK Law for the first time were a whole administration away. No-one drafting the 1992 Regulations gave the slightest thought to trans people.
He then says:
‘There is no definition of 'male' or 'female' in the Regulations. There is no 'common law' definition of 'male' and 'female' in UK Law and I challenge anyone to identify it, despite. the fact that quite senior Counsel, on occasion, have told judges with a straight face that there is.’

Obviously there’s no definition of male and female because no one was daft enough to think they needed to be defined, or as Robin says, no-one drafting the 1992 Regulations gave the slightest thought to trans people.
Also this was before the Supreme Court, so it’s outdated now.

SexRealismBeliefs · 11/12/2025 11:28

So I think a big point of appeal is disregarding Pregnancy and Maternity Schedule 22 exepmtion under EqA 2010. Per Judgment. 259. Contrary to the claimant’s submissions, the Schedule 22 exception does not apply to Regulation 20 of the 1992 Regs because it is not concerned with “protecting women in relation to—(a)pregnancy or maternity, or (b)any other circumstances giving rise to risks specifically affecting women.” Reg. 20 is concerned with protecting both men and women and not women specifically. Furthermore, the Sch. 22 exception applies “only by doing in relation to a woman” and not by doing in relation to a man.

My thoughts -

This is an incorrect legal interpretation of the Regulations. The Regulations are very much concerned with the safety of pregnant woman and nursing mothers (materntity protection).

Regulation 25 of the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 states that employers must provide a suitable place for pregnant and breastfeeding workers to rest.

Facilities for pregnant women and nursing mothers
234 Facilities for pregnant women and nursing mothers to rest should be conveniently situated in relation to toilets and, where necessary, include the facility to lie down. Separate guidance is available on working safely with ionising radiation for expectant or breastfeeding mothers. To suggest that pregnant women should be siutation. Workplace (Health Safety and Welfare) Regulations

There is no sense in interpretating that into any thing other than single sexed toilet facilities.

HSE BOOKS © Crown copyright 2002
A guide for employers
New and expectant mothers at work
First published 1994
Second edition 2002
ISBN 0 7176 2583 https://www.qub.ac.uk/directorates/EstatesDirectorate/UniversitySafetyService/FileStore/Filetoupload923384en.pdf

Resting facilities: Rest is important for new and expectant mothers. Tiredness increases during and after pregnancy and may be exacerbated by work-related factors. The need for rest is both physical and mental.
Hygiene facilities: Without easy access to toilets (and associated hygiene facilities) at work, due to distance, work processes or systems, etc, there may be increased risks to health and safety, including significant risks of infection and kidney disease.
Because of pressure on the bladder and other changes associated with pregnancy, pregnant women often have to go to the toilet more frequently and more urgently than others.
Breastfeeding women may also need to do so because of increased fluid intake to promote breast milk production.

Added to the list of reasons why toilets are important during pregnancy and maternity I think this is a significant point of appeal.

https://www.qub.ac.uk/directorates/EstatesDirectorate/UniversitySafetyService/FileStore/Filetoupload923384en.pdf

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 11/12/2025 11:48

SternJoyousBeev2 · 11/12/2025 11:04

It’s as ridiculous as saying that because someone has a clean DBS certificate that a youth organisation can abandon all other safeguarding processes.

To me, the vetting point in the judgment just seems a bit like

'I have decided what the outcome will be, it looks a bit dodgy, I just need a few bits and pieces to paper over the cracks so hopefully no one will notice'

Londonmummy66 · 11/12/2025 13:41

Slightly late to the point various PPs have raised about visitors to defence sites. I have visited a L Ltd site although not Edinburgh. Visitors are very strictly monitored. Met at reception - not head up in the lift, straight to the meeting room, when I needed the loo the guy I was visiting got his secretary to accompany me there and back (and yes it was badged as a ladies...)

Keeptoiletssafe · 11/12/2025 14:51

Londonmummy66 · 11/12/2025 13:41

Slightly late to the point various PPs have raised about visitors to defence sites. I have visited a L Ltd site although not Edinburgh. Visitors are very strictly monitored. Met at reception - not head up in the lift, straight to the meeting room, when I needed the loo the guy I was visiting got his secretary to accompany me there and back (and yes it was badged as a ladies...)

I had this once in a science experimental site. I also had to take a special bus to get in, that had mirrors put under it at the entrance, to check for bombs.

Keeptoiletssafe · 11/12/2025 14:55

Because we are discussing hierarchy of needs, I put with on the Fife thread, though more relevant here.

If some disabled people require separate sex toilet and washrooms (details in HSE part M) and there are regulations to ensure disabled people has access to suitable facilities, and there is no hierarchy of needs, then we need separate sex toilets and washrooms in workplaces. Certain religions also require this for their faith. As do women for welfare, particularly when pregnant, because there are risks that that’s the location women go to when something goes wrong and also fainting risks. As, I would argue AGE (elderly and children more at risk and need greater supervision, which is noted as a reason to have door gaps in past British standards).
So in terms of NUMBERS that’s

  1. disability
  2. sex
  3. religion
  4. age
  5. pregnancy and maternity
that are better off in single sex designs than private mixed sex designs (which is the way this is going).
Boiledbeetle · 11/12/2025 23:25

SexRealismBeliefs · 11/12/2025 10:42

Thank you - hadn't considered that https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5yjd4vw417o

The girl in my case was a teenager, it was a good while ago now but I think she was only a young teenager. She'd actually been in hospital for a few days with stomach pains and they'd been unable to find the cause and sent her home. So she obviously didn't look or feel pregnant when they'd examined her and she must have been too young for them to have even considered that she might be pregnant. The baby was born at full term.

SexRealismBeliefs · 11/12/2025 23:45

Boiledbeetle · 11/12/2025 23:25

The girl in my case was a teenager, it was a good while ago now but I think she was only a young teenager. She'd actually been in hospital for a few days with stomach pains and they'd been unable to find the cause and sent her home. So she obviously didn't look or feel pregnant when they'd examined her and she must have been too young for them to have even considered that she might be pregnant. The baby was born at full term.

I can't imagine how that was for her. Aren't bodies remarkable.

My knowledge of womens need of the toilets has vastly increased this week.

SexRealismBeliefs · 11/12/2025 23:46

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 11/12/2025 11:48

To me, the vetting point in the judgment just seems a bit like

'I have decided what the outcome will be, it looks a bit dodgy, I just need a few bits and pieces to paper over the cracks so hopefully no one will notice'

Some excellent women have linked to two pretty important docs

https://kpssinfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/DBS-Checks-and-Identity-Verification.pdf

https://iipcv-prod.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/E03342246_Angiolini-Inquiry-Pt2_Accessible.pdf - https://archive.is/JHWCs

https://kpssinfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/DBS-Checks-and-Identity-Verification.pdf

Keeptoiletssafe · 12/12/2025 00:58

I hope the Judge looks at the conclusions and recommendations in the Angiolini inquiry. Part 2.

I hope he starts to understand what women are up against because he doesn’t seem to at the moment.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 12/12/2025 11:30

Boiledbeetle · 11/12/2025 23:25

The girl in my case was a teenager, it was a good while ago now but I think she was only a young teenager. She'd actually been in hospital for a few days with stomach pains and they'd been unable to find the cause and sent her home. So she obviously didn't look or feel pregnant when they'd examined her and she must have been too young for them to have even considered that she might be pregnant. The baby was born at full term.

I delivered a baby to a lady in A&E who presented with stomach pains. She was ten months post partum & breastfeeding. She was large, in her thirties & unaware that she was pregnant.

SexRealismBeliefs · 12/12/2025 14:58

How’s that vetting line going for you EJ Michelle Sutherland:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/dec/12/met-police-face-independent-inquiry-over-fears-300-recruits-not-properly-vetted

Talkinpeace · 12/12/2025 17:42

It astonishes me that companies who do not bat an eyelid at providing toilets for disabled employees
even though they are few in number
and maybe only one has complained

are so utterly unwilling to apply the same principle to females

OneForTheHoneyTwoForTheSnow · 13/12/2025 08:10

One of my relatives is currently going through vetting - the sort we cannot discuss- and none of the questions are about whether he might not be morally decent in the toilet at work. It's all about his finances, social media, political leanings and those of his family and friends - anything that makes him vulnerable to becoming an asset or likely to want to become one.

Peregrina · 13/12/2025 10:32

It's all about his finances, social media, political leanings and those of his family and friends - anything that makes him vulnerable to becoming an asset or likely to want to become one.

I went through Positive Vetting in a couple of jobs - all of the above, (although social media wasn't a thing then), were designed to tease out whether you could be compromised by being blackmailed by the other side, especially for those with homosexual leanings which they had kept quiet about. We forget how society has changed in this respect in the last 40 years or so.