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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 4

666 replies

ickky · 24/10/2025 09:14

The Tribunal has now finished and we await the judgement.

Abbreviations:

C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
AL - Andrew R Letton VP People Shared Services Leonardo - respondent witness

Tribunal Tweets coverage here

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5416903-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-29th-september-10am?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5420656-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-thread-2

Thread 3
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5421183-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-thread-3

Kelly vs Leonardo UK Ltd

Tribunal will consider workplace toilet provision

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

OP posts:
Thread gallery
25
Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/12/2025 17:40

Keeptoiletssafe · 05/12/2025 17:04

Yes similar to Doc T saying this is from 2024 onwards. The economics of changing toilet designs is a huge headache. At the moment 25% of secondary schools have mixed sex toilets. Pupils safety doesn’t fall under 1992 legislation or Doc T apparently - it’s only for the teachers.

I thought there was separate legislation for school toilets over 8yo? https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/1943/regulation/4/made

The School Premises (England) Regulations 2012

These Regulations apply to schools maintained by local authorities in England (including pupil referral units).

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/1943/regulation/4/made

Grammarnut · 05/12/2025 17:41

MyrtleLion · 05/12/2025 17:39

This may be a misreading of the regulations. Single sex facilities have single sex washing facilities in the single sex communal area.

Single occupancy toilets used by either sex, must have floor to ceiling doors and be enclosed with a wash basin inside. I don't understand where the regulations say single occupancy toilets have mixed sex washing facilities outside them.

That's because there are no such regulations. It's either single sex with wash basins in the open area, or mixed sex each toilet, washbasin, hand dryer and sanitary bin in an enclosed, floor to ceiling cubicle. I think this arrangement is dangerous for lots of reasons, but it's the legal alternative to single sex facilities afaik.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 05/12/2025 17:47

MyAmpleSheep · 05/12/2025 17:15

I don't think the law distinguishes between handwashing facilities for use after using a toilet and hand washing facilities provided for any other purpose. Up until Document T, at any rate.

Toilets have to be near handwashing facilities. That's it.

Edited

This is so far from most people's expectations that I hope you are mistaken. In any case, no one in this country wants to build separate sex toilets with common washing areas - it is not the estimable Pete that wants to wash his hands with the women.

MyAmpleSheep · 05/12/2025 17:52

MyrtleLion · 05/12/2025 17:39

This may be a misreading of the regulations. Single sex facilities have single sex washing facilities in the single sex communal area.

Single occupancy toilets used by either sex, must have floor to ceiling doors and be enclosed with a wash basin inside. I don't understand where the regulations say single occupancy toilets have mixed sex washing facilities outside them.

A lot of these ambiguities are cleared up in Document T. Document T says that single sex toilets have to have single sex hand washing facilities (either in the toilet room or in a different room but still single sex), and that universal toilets have to have hand washing facilities inside them.

Prior to Document T can you find a regulation that says single-user full-height-door lockable-from-the-inside toilets cannot share mixed-sex handwashing facilities?

MyAmpleSheep · 05/12/2025 17:57

Grammarnut · 05/12/2025 17:41

That's because there are no such regulations. It's either single sex with wash basins in the open area, or mixed sex each toilet, washbasin, hand dryer and sanitary bin in an enclosed, floor to ceiling cubicle. I think this arrangement is dangerous for lots of reasons, but it's the legal alternative to single sex facilities afaik.

mixed sex each toilet, washbasin, hand dryer and sanitary bin in an enclosed, floor to ceiling cubicle

This was introduced, as far as I know, with Document T. Prior, there was no requirement for a single user enclosed floor to ceiling door room with sanitary convenience to have hand washing facilities. The hand washing facilities simply need to be "in the immediate vicinity". And facilities for washing of hands can explicity be mixed-sex.

Happy to be shown a regulation that says otherwise. Document T of course clears all this up.

Keeptoiletssafe · 05/12/2025 17:58

I have said this before but it seems that the judge didn’t know this. Robin Moria White called ‘gender-neutral’ toilets ‘ghettos’. Robin wants to use the ladies. Why do women have to suffer ghettos because Robin is in the ladies? And furthermore, doesn’t the judge realise that because Robin is in there, the ladies then become ghettos by design and the problems that gender-neutral toilets have get shifted. It’s not a race to the worst loos.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 05/12/2025 18:00

NebulousSupportPostcard · 04/12/2025 16:31

@ArabellaSaurus pls fact check with me, if possible?

In an earlier a post I noted that Judge Michelle Sutherland, as I observed her during the BM Kelly vs Leonardo UK tribunal, appears to be the same Michelle Sutherland pictured here, as Trustee of Fidra environmental charity based in North Berwick, East Lothian.. I won't repost all links, but to recap: Fidra ia a small charity with endowment status, and approx 11 employees and 4 trustees. Trustees are noted to be responsible for management oversight, and Michelle Sutherland works closely with the Operations Manager, who in the last year arranged training for Fidra staff on being an ally/safe spaces, provided by the LGBT Foundation.

From further secret squirrelling I think that Michelle Sutherland, with her "strong personal interest in passive housing", seems likely also to be the same Michelle Sutherland featured here, who with a Neil Thompson (sic) self-built a passive house for themselves in North Berwick and showed it off to a Scotland on Sunday publication.

(Their young children are featured in the article, please do not post the names or anything about them here to protect their privacy; any links to the parents charitable endeavours don't need to be spelled out in a way that harms their privacy).

I think 'Thompson', above, may be a misspelling of Thomson, because the photo on the passive house article matches photos of a www.linkedin.com/in/neil-thomson-045a4463 Neil Thomson Director of NB Analytics Ltd. Neil's company is based in North Berwick where a
Michelle Diane Sutherland was also a company Director until 2020.

There seem to be quite a few Michelle Sutherlands in the area but I have only found one Michelle Diane Sutherland in North Berwick.

We can see here, that Employment Judge Michelle Sutherland was intitially listed as Judge Michelle Diane Sutherland when first appointed on a fee-paid basis in 2018

I have also found another Scottish charitable organisation called Team East Lothian, an athletics club, with a Michelle Sutherland as Trustee and current Chairperson. The Secretary of the same organisation is a Neil Thomson. Sadly there are no photos or addresses of Trustees available at this time, but details should be available on the SCIO register from January 2026

If Judge Michelle Sutherland is also a Trustee and the current Chairperson of Team East Lothian Athletics Club, then she will have almost certainly declared this as a potential conflict of interest already, I imagine, given that:

1 Team East Lothian has previously signed its child members and all up to the East Lothian Sports Charter, to embrace equality and inclusion;

2 the club has adopted the ScottishAthletics Equality Policy which, inter alia, has added gender as a protected characteristic in its own hot take on the Equality Act 2010.

Discrimination has been legally defined through the Equality Act 2010. Discrimination refers to unfavourable treatment on the basis of particular characteristics, which are known as the ‘protected characteristics’. Under the Equality Act 2010, the protected characteristics are defined as age (employment only until 2012), disability, gender reassignment, marital or civil partnership status (employment only), pregnancy and maternity, race (which includes ethnic or national origin, colour or nationality), religion or belief, sex (gender) and sexual orientation.

3 Scottish Athletics provides rainbow-based Guidance on Equality for clubs and has a Transgender/DSD policy which, if also adopted by Team East Lothian, would mean that there would be few restrictions on sex-based inclusion/exclusion in school athletic competitions, and that 'conversation-based' decisions would be made more broadly on eligibility for inclusion on the basis of gender identity rather than sex.

I should repeat that I cannot definitively link Judge Michelle Sutherland to the Michelle Sutherland who is Trustee and Chair of Team East Lothian. If she is the same person then she has probably already declared her roles as possible conflicts of interest lest otherwise a fair-minded and informed observer should conclude that there could be a real possibility of bias that could have affected the otherwise beautifully drafted and thoroughly spell-checked decision in the case of Kelly V Leonardo.

If the athletics club chairperson is the same Michelle Sutherland as the judge, I wonder of the basis of her decision is something like

'this is how we have already decided to interpret the law at the athletics club, I think it works so lets go with that, OK'

MyAmpleSheep · 05/12/2025 18:02

One final point on the legality of shared washing facilities: I'm not sure that it's a endorsement given the gapings holes in the rest of the judgement, but the judge appears to agree:

  1. Under Reg 20(2) the toilets must be in separate rooms for men and women (‘separate toilets’) “except where and so far as each convenience is in a separate room the door of which is capable of being secured from inside” (‘shared toilets’). The claimant submitted that the washing facilities also required to be provided separately under the 1992 Regs. The requirement for separate facilities applies only to the toilets themselves and not to associated hand basins (which may be in a shared room under Regulation 21).
TriesNotToBeCynical · 05/12/2025 18:04

MyAmpleSheep · 05/12/2025 17:57

mixed sex each toilet, washbasin, hand dryer and sanitary bin in an enclosed, floor to ceiling cubicle

This was introduced, as far as I know, with Document T. Prior, there was no requirement for a single user enclosed floor to ceiling door room with sanitary convenience to have hand washing facilities. The hand washing facilities simply need to be "in the immediate vicinity". And facilities for washing of hands can explicity be mixed-sex.

Happy to be shown a regulation that says otherwise. Document T of course clears all this up.

You seem to have identified a major gap in the regulations. But in practice I don't think anyone in the last fifty years would have built a single sex multi person toilet without hand washing facilities. It is shocking they would still be permitted.

MyAmpleSheep · 05/12/2025 18:08

TriesNotToBeCynical · 05/12/2025 18:04

You seem to have identified a major gap in the regulations. But in practice I don't think anyone in the last fifty years would have built a single sex multi person toilet without hand washing facilities. It is shocking they would still be permitted.

It is shocking they would still be permitted.

They're not any more. Document T (I think) requires single-sex washing facilities either in the same toilet room or a separate but still single-sex room.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 05/12/2025 18:11

Is Document T retrospective though? Most building regs aren't.

Keeptoiletssafe · 05/12/2025 18:12

MyAmpleSheep · 05/12/2025 17:57

mixed sex each toilet, washbasin, hand dryer and sanitary bin in an enclosed, floor to ceiling cubicle

This was introduced, as far as I know, with Document T. Prior, there was no requirement for a single user enclosed floor to ceiling door room with sanitary convenience to have hand washing facilities. The hand washing facilities simply need to be "in the immediate vicinity". And facilities for washing of hands can explicity be mixed-sex.

Happy to be shown a regulation that says otherwise. Document T of course clears all this up.

I will have a look at my stuff. Unfortunately, bs6465 is £££ but I have got relevant sections and I will look at other legislation.

It a mess because, as others and myself have said, this scenario was unthinkable when legislation and regs were being made. It wouldn’t have crossed people’s minds a woman would have to go to court and a judge would rule that a man’s preference was greater than her needs to use the ladies loo.

MyrtleLion · 05/12/2025 18:12

MyAmpleSheep · 05/12/2025 17:52

A lot of these ambiguities are cleared up in Document T. Document T says that single sex toilets have to have single sex hand washing facilities (either in the toilet room or in a different room but still single sex), and that universal toilets have to have hand washing facilities inside them.

Prior to Document T can you find a regulation that says single-user full-height-door lockable-from-the-inside toilets cannot share mixed-sex handwashing facilities?

Regation 21 from the 1992 Workplace Regulations: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/3004/regulation/21

Washing facilities
21.—(1) Suitable and sufficient washing facilities, including showers if required by the nature of the work or for health reasons, shall be provided at readily accessible places.

  1. Without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (1), washing facilities shall not be suitable unless—

(a)they are provided in the immediate vicinity of every sanitary convenience, whether or not provided elsewhere as well;

(b)they are provided in the vicinity of any changing rooms required by these Regulations, whether or not provided elsewhere as well;

(c)they include a supply of clean hot and cold, or warm, water (which shall be running water so far as is practicable);

(d)they include soap or other suitable means of cleaning;

(e)they include towels or other suitable means of drying;

(f)the rooms containing them are sufficiently ventilated and lit;

(g)they and the rooms containing them are kept in a clean and orderly condition; and

(h)separate facilities are provided for men and women, except where and so far as they are provided in a room the door of which is capable of being secured from inside and the facilities in each such room are intended to be used by only one person at a time.

  1. Paragraph (2)(h) shall not apply to facilities which are provided for washing hands, forearms and face only.

My emphasis.

The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/3004/regulation/21

spannasaurus · 05/12/2025 18:12

Regulation 21 requires washing facilities to be single sex or in single user room

(2) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (1), washing facilities shall not be suitable unless—

(h)separate facilities are provided for men and women, except where and so far as they are provided in a room the door of which is capable of being secured from inside and the facilities in each such room are intended to be used by only one person at a time.

(3) Paragraph (2)(h) shall not apply to facilities which are provided for washing hands, forearms and face only.
MyAmpleSheep · 05/12/2025 18:14

TriesNotToBeCynical · 05/12/2025 18:11

Is Document T retrospective though? Most building regs aren't.

No. And it's a building regulation, so applies to anyone building new toilets or renovating old ones (such that a building permit is required.) - therefore landlords, property managers, construction contractors etc. It's not a duty on employers per se, like the Workplace Regulations. It's likely to have much the same effect, in time, but it definitely doesn't require anyone to comply retrospectively.

MyrtleLion · 05/12/2025 18:16

MyAmpleSheep · 05/12/2025 18:02

One final point on the legality of shared washing facilities: I'm not sure that it's a endorsement given the gapings holes in the rest of the judgement, but the judge appears to agree:

  1. Under Reg 20(2) the toilets must be in separate rooms for men and women (‘separate toilets’) “except where and so far as each convenience is in a separate room the door of which is capable of being secured from inside” (‘shared toilets’). The claimant submitted that the washing facilities also required to be provided separately under the 1992 Regs. The requirement for separate facilities applies only to the toilets themselves and not to associated hand basins (which may be in a shared room under Regulation 21).

Well she's absolutely wrong because Regulation 21 says washing facilities must be provided separately for men and women. See my previous post.

MyAmpleSheep · 05/12/2025 18:16

spannasaurus · 05/12/2025 18:12

Regulation 21 requires washing facilities to be single sex or in single user room

(2) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (1), washing facilities shall not be suitable unless—

(h)separate facilities are provided for men and women, except where and so far as they are provided in a room the door of which is capable of being secured from inside and the facilities in each such room are intended to be used by only one person at a time.

(3) Paragraph (2)(h) shall not apply to facilities which are provided for washing hands, forearms and face only.

Washing facilities in general include baths and showers, which of course have to be single sex. But for handwashing facilities the exemption in (3) applies, so they can be mixed sex:

(3) Paragraph (2)(h) shall not apply to facilities which are provided for washing hands, forearms and face only.

MyrtleLion · 05/12/2025 18:19

MyAmpleSheep · 05/12/2025 18:16

Washing facilities in general include baths and showers, which of course have to be single sex. But for handwashing facilities the exemption in (3) applies, so they can be mixed sex:

(3) Paragraph (2)(h) shall not apply to facilities which are provided for washing hands, forearms and face only.

Except custom and practice has meant that the exemption is rarely applied. And I could successfully argue that basins provided in women's toilets are not just for hands, forearms and faces.

Keeptoiletssafe · 05/12/2025 18:21

TriesNotToBeCynical · 05/12/2025 17:47

This is so far from most people's expectations that I hope you are mistaken. In any case, no one in this country wants to build separate sex toilets with common washing areas - it is not the estimable Pete that wants to wash his hands with the women.

That’s what they have in many schools.

It’s inclusive and a social justice issue.
See Stalledonline. They are influential in this country and the directors work was quoted in the consultation for document T.

MyrtleLion · 05/12/2025 18:21

MyrtleLion · 05/12/2025 18:19

Except custom and practice has meant that the exemption is rarely applied. And I could successfully argue that basins provided in women's toilets are not just for hands, forearms and faces.

I think also that the requirement for washing facilities to be provided in the immediate vicinity of the toilets, and that the toilets must be provided separately, is an argument for single sex washing facilities in the single sex toilets.

It's like she hasn't looked at the totality of the regulations.

Keeptoiletssafe · 05/12/2025 18:22

Cooking now. Will come back later.

MyAmpleSheep · 05/12/2025 18:25

MyrtleLion · 05/12/2025 18:19

Except custom and practice has meant that the exemption is rarely applied. And I could successfully argue that basins provided in women's toilets are not just for hands, forearms and faces.

If the basins are provided in women's toilets then you don't need to argue it; they're already single sex.

If you look at any basins provided in mixed-sex hand washing facilities you'd have to point to them and get a judge to agree they're not provided for washing only hands forearms and face. It's pretty obvious that small basins aren't suitable for washing anything else, so you'd have a hard time saying they were provided for any purpose that means (3) wouldn't apply.

EDIT: what you want to argue is that toilets need to be accompanied by facilities for washing more than just hands, forearms and face (therefore have to be separated.) On the basis of long-established practice across the country, I don't think you'd get a judge to agree.

spannasaurus · 05/12/2025 18:28

MyAmpleSheep · 05/12/2025 18:16

Washing facilities in general include baths and showers, which of course have to be single sex. But for handwashing facilities the exemption in (3) applies, so they can be mixed sex:

(3) Paragraph (2)(h) shall not apply to facilities which are provided for washing hands, forearms and face only.

That's one possible interpretation but are washing facilities associated with toilets provided for washing hands, forearms and face only or are they provided as part of the sanitary conveniences.

Hand washing facilities in a kitchen would certainly fall within the exception but I'm not convinced that handwashing for toilets would.

MyrtleLion · 05/12/2025 18:28

MyAmpleSheep · 05/12/2025 18:25

If the basins are provided in women's toilets then you don't need to argue it; they're already single sex.

If you look at any basins provided in mixed-sex hand washing facilities you'd have to point to them and get a judge to agree they're not provided for washing only hands forearms and face. It's pretty obvious that small basins aren't suitable for washing anything else, so you'd have a hard time saying they were provided for any purpose that means (3) wouldn't apply.

EDIT: what you want to argue is that toilets need to be accompanied by facilities for washing more than just hands, forearms and face (therefore have to be separated.) On the basis of long-established practice across the country, I don't think you'd get a judge to agree.

Edited

But I'm struggling to see how it works.

Single sex loos must have washing facilities immediately adjacent. So in the room with the loos.

Single occupancy toilets must have a basin inside so no need for sinks outside.

When would you have mixed sex washing facilities with single sex loos?

I appreciate schools have them, but pupils are not covered by the workplace regulations in the same way. This was a workplace issue.

MyAmpleSheep · 05/12/2025 18:30

MyrtleLion · 05/12/2025 18:28

But I'm struggling to see how it works.

Single sex loos must have washing facilities immediately adjacent. So in the room with the loos.

Single occupancy toilets must have a basin inside so no need for sinks outside.

When would you have mixed sex washing facilities with single sex loos?

I appreciate schools have them, but pupils are not covered by the workplace regulations in the same way. This was a workplace issue.

Single occupancy toilets must have a basin inside so no need for sinks outside.

No, they don't. Not until Document T came into force.

Prior to document T, you can have a row of single occupancy full-height-door toilets, and a row of shared handbasins immediately outside.

There was a thread in AIBU a couple of months ago complaining about this arrangements; but it's not unlawful.

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