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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Livestream debate with Mia Hughes and Morgane Oger

233 replies

unwashedanddazed · 24/10/2025 01:27

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WewreIEBhe4

Only heard a few minutes so far. My he has a deep voice!

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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WewreIEBhe4

OP posts:
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10
MalagaNights · 24/10/2025 09:45

There is such a thing as feminine.
Some women are more feminine than others.
Some men are feminine.

They're all still men and women though.

GrassesSedgesRushes · 24/10/2025 09:46

Helleofabore · 24/10/2025 09:41

When Oger said 'in 2025 this month reported uh said that trans Canadians report higher life satisfaction and lower suicidal ideation when affirmed.' has anyone seen this report?

And I really wish that suicidal ideation was not used to justify medicalisation of children. Even Strangio admitted that there was no evidence of medical treatment improving suicide rates under oath in court.

“Strangio said: “What I think that is referring to is there is no evidence in some—in the studies that this treatment reduces completed suicide. And the reason for that is completed suicide, thankfully and admittedly, is rare and we’re talking about a very small population of individuals with studies that don’t necessarily have completed suicides within them.”

However, there are multiple studies, long-term longitudinal studies that do show that there is a reduction in—in suicidality . . .” “

https://www.city-journal.org/article/aclu-attorney-confesses-transgender-suicide-claim-is-a-myth

What Strangio said has been clarified over the past years in multiple countries not just the USA. Concerningly, suicide numbers are not shown to decrease with the current gender affirming care recommendations. Hence why there is so much discussion about those treatment recommendations.

It looks like Oger is again spreading misinformation about suicide.

Scsndinavian data (which is population data, not just a small study) should a huge increase in suicide post-transition: an 18-fold increase,

MrsOvertonsWindow · 24/10/2025 09:47

Theeyeballsinthesky · 24/10/2025 08:23

While you might believe them to be men is simply an opinion so your 'misogyny' claims don't necessarily apply outside your own jurisdiction.

they are men whatever the law in Canada says. Morgane will still need his prostate checked and he's never going to need a cervical smear. He understands that as much as anyone else

Love the puerile allegation of "cultural superiority" from men determined to wedge themselves into places where women undress or discuss their experiences of sexual abuse.

Still - shows their desperation as there's no moral or ethical arguments they can make

DialSquare · 24/10/2025 09:48

Howseitgoin · 24/10/2025 09:23

Facts aren't insulting. And there's nothing wrong with women looking less feminine as they age particularly post menopause.

That you read this as insulting is insulting.

“Facts aren’t insulting”

Are you taking the piss?

Helleofabore · 24/10/2025 09:49

When Oger said this, I found it rather incongruous with his then assertion about rape centres.

"In the UK, rape by deception is a thing."

"Laws centered around that have been weaponized against trans people for not disclosing gender history. Never been used for not disclosing anything else. and not used against people who don't disclose that they hate trans people. Trapping poor innocent trans people into a relationship with a bigot."

"Clutch my pearls."

and later he said this:

"Trans women rely on the same shelters, clinics, and prisons because our risks are the same as cis women for the most part. There might be some specialized differences, but very, very few. And everybody deserves equal. Everybody deserves dignity in a service, especially in a crisis."

I mean, really???

"Everybody deserves dignity ...."

Well.... clearly.... not 'everybody'....

When you see the inconsistency and the incredible narcissism within what Oger says, it is really hard to get past it.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 24/10/2025 09:50

Soontobe60 · 24/10/2025 09:23

When she died at 101 year’s old, my grandmother was still obviously female. Why are you claiming that older women look like men? What total nonsense and misogyny you’re displaying there.

Ageism along with a seething dislike of women's bodies are the hallmark of an incel / transactivist.

Helleofabore · 24/10/2025 09:51

GrassesSedgesRushes · 24/10/2025 09:46

Scsndinavian data (which is population data, not just a small study) should a huge increase in suicide post-transition: an 18-fold increase,

I remember. Partly because people realised that surgeries and hormones did not make their wish a reality.

But I have been searching for this new report that is supposed to be from this month from Canada and could not find it.

TheBlueHotel · 24/10/2025 09:52

Howseitgoin · 24/10/2025 07:14

Thank you for posting this, really appreciate the civility in this debate.
I hadn't heard of Morgane before & she provided great insight I hadn't heard before so will follow her further.

Edited

The ogre? She???

WandaSiri · 24/10/2025 09:56

Morgan Oger of cotton ceiling workshop notoriety?

KnottyAuty · 24/10/2025 10:00

Howseitgoin · 24/10/2025 08:33

Social distinctions are material reality. We rarely distinguish men from women using gametal evaluations in our everyday social interactions, rather surface level typical associations.

If only that were true.
Being biologically female still defines how women are treated in society. How they are spoken to, promoted, respected, ignored, minimised. That’s why feminists had to stress for years that women could do as men could in many aspects of life. Minimising sex differences was essential for female emancipation - so it’s exceptionally cruel for the gender self ID brigade to now say - well if there’s no difference then a man can be a woman. The cruelty being because sex discrimination hasn’t even been eliminated. And now (some) men have an excuse to eliminate the very things that women worked for to have for themselves. It’s not like all men wanted rape crisis centres and provided them for women - women set them up and had to fight against the men who said they shouldn’t have them. Those men were historically on the right side of politics. Ironically now it is the men on the left who seek to destroy those women’s services - why don’t they set up their own services? Let’s call him for what he is - Morgane is a cruel sexist man

DialSquare · 24/10/2025 10:01

Helleofabore · 24/10/2025 09:59

https://gendercriticalwoman.blog/2022/08/03/morgan-page-stonewall-ambassador/

I think you may mean Morgan Page. Another bloke who disrespects female people.

There’s just so many of them.

CarDoorWillySlam · 24/10/2025 10:14

Morgane is a cruel sexist man

Hateful man. Originally encouraged Yaniv (back in 2016, 2017?) until JY went way too far and MO had to distance himself. Because MO wanted to go into politics.

TWETMIRF · 24/10/2025 10:15

Greyskybluesky · 24/10/2025 09:24

In my world, CIS written in capitals means Commonwealth of Independent States. I snigger every time the poster writes it like that.

#boringfact

It's Construction Industry Scheme to me. It also annoys me that cis is pronounced as sis, the Romans pronounced c as k and it's their language.

Greyskybluesky · 24/10/2025 10:18

"Trans" and "Kiss" 😄

Helleofabore · 24/10/2025 10:20

Here is Mia Hughes' opening statement:

start

Mia Hughes: So the topic of this evening's event is gender identity, the evidence and the impact. In 2002, the Northwest Territories became the first jurisdiction in Canada to add gender identity to its Human Rights Act. Unbeknownst to Canadians, that was the moment our nation began its descent into chaos, when the most basic facts about human existence began to be dismantled. and the sex-based protections of women and girls started to crumble.

Over the next 15 years, every province and territory added gender identity to human rights codes despite having no clear definition of what the term means. In 2017, the federal government brought the era to a close with Bill C16, adding gender identity and gender expression to the Canadian Human Rights Act and the Criminal Code. Along the way, no law maker paused to ask what would happen if a self-declared identity with no objective measures became a protected characteristic in Canadian law. No one considered how it
might affect the rights of women and girls.

When objections were raised, they were ignored or dismissed as hate and bigotry. It's astounding to me that gender identity was enshrined in federal law without ever being defined. Neither Bill C16 nor the amen the amendments that followed supplied a definition, leaving policy makers and courts tribunals to rely on provincial codes or federal departments for a definition.

One such definition is that of the Department of Justice, which I'll read to you now in full. Brace yourselves.

The Department of Justice Canada defines gender identity as each each person's internal and individual experience of gender, their sense of being a woman, a man, both, neither, or anywhere along the gender spectrum. For some persons, their gender identity is different from the gender typically associated with their sex assigned at birth. This is often described as transgender or simply trans.

This is incoherent activist gibberish, an unscientific, unfalsifiable concept with no objective criteria or legal clarity. By contrast, every other protected characteristic in Canada, such as sex, race, age, sexual orientation is objective, objectively verifiable and clearly defined.

So what happens when you structure society around subjective feelings rather than material reality? You erode the vital safeguards that depend on reality, namely the sex-based protections essential to the privacy, safety, and protection of women and girls. Because in truth, gender identity as a protected characteristic permits any male to self-declare a female gender identity and access female only spaces.

This is astonishing when you consider that male people commit most sex offences and female people make up most of their victims. In Canadian prisons, inmates now have the option to be housed based on self-declared gender identity. And this policy has allowed violent male criminals, including those convicted of murder and sexual assault, to transfer into the female estate.

In women's shelters, rape crisis centers, and hospital wards, women in states of extreme vulnerability find themselves forced to share intimate spaces with males. And in everyday self-p policing spaces such as bathrooms and changing rooms, women must accept the presence of men. Knowing that questioning or challenging a man's self-declared female identity could be considered discrimination or hate. The fact of the matter is the two protected characteristics, sex and gender identity, cannot coexist.

It's not logically possible to protect both. Instead, it's a zero sum situation. Protecting one inevitably nullifies the other.

But tonight, I'll also argue that the concept of a gender identity is a dangerous oversimplification. One that ultimately does more harm than good even to those who identify as transgender because it it condenses a complex array of psychological, developmental, and social phenomena into one single label.

Within this category, there are adult males with an erotic fixation on being female, homosexuals with internalized homophobia, adolescence with neurodeiversity, psychiatric comorbidities, or developmental confusion. All adopting a one-size-fits-all label that comes with a drastic medical pathway as a remedy. Which brings me to another downstream effect of giving gender identity legitimacy in law that rarely gets mentioned.

Once cemented into our human rights code, the concept was then able to migrate into our schools. Children as young as kindergarten… children as young as kindergarten…. in kindergarten who still believe in Father Christmas are told that they have gender identities that they can choose whether they're boys or girls. There are posters adorning classrooms that declare there can be male women, female men, humans of both sexes or no sex at all. And this is not presented to children as a belief or a political ideology but a scientific fact. And no one responsible for safeguarding stopped to question what would be the consequences of untethering an entire generation of children from reality.

From our vantage point in 2025, the catastrophic effects are undeniable. We now have legions of confused young people thinking they have a mismatched gender identity and therefore need body parts chopped off who find themselves in the hands of a field of medicine also affected by gender identity being enshrined into our law. Because in 2021, our government further entrenched the concept with the passage of Bill C4, the so-called conversion therapy ban that forbids efforts to help distressed youth reconcile with their sex and avert the need for medical intervention.

So, I've often asked myself, you know, how could no one foresee the absolute chaos on the horizon? But Sheri Denovo, the NDP MPP, who introduced gender identity into Ontario's human rights code in 2012, actually provides the answer in 2021 in her 2021 memoir, noting how her private members bill impacted the way our entire province did business. She had this to say.

I don't believe for an instant that the government realized the scope of that one change. I'm glad they didn't look too closely.

That candid admission captures the very essence of the problem. Gender identity entered Canadian law not through rigorous analysis or scientific validation, but through political momentum and moral enthusiasm. Lawmakers did not ask what the concept meant, what it how it would interact with sex-based rights, or what downstream effects the it might have on policy coherence or child safeguarding. So, here we are more than a decade later, finally having the conversation that should have happened before gender identity was written into law. And because we're doing it backwards, there are those who frame even asking questions or raising concerns as discrimination or hate.

Which brings me to my final point. Adding gender identity as a protected characteristic in law hasn't just conflicted with the rights of women and girls and and the right of children to a childhood grounded in truth. It also conflicts with the fundamental rights enshrined in our charter of rights and freedoms because everyone is expected to believe or pretend to believe in a person's self-declared gender identity or risk being accused of hate and discrimination.

Now, don't get me wrong, everyone in a free democratic society is entitled to hold any belief that they choose. If someone wishes to believe that they possess a gender identity that doesn't match their sexed body, that's their right.

But what many people seem to have forgotten is that with freedom of belief comes the freedom not to believe.

So I'm going to lay my cards on the table and say that I do not believe in the existence of gender identities and I won't pretend that I do. And I also make no apologies for that because non-belief is not discrimination and non-belief is not hate. The right to question, to disagree, even to offend is the bedrock of democracy. And so for the sake of women's rights, child protection, and medical safeguarding, it's essential that we now have this gender identity debate openly, honestly, and without fear.

HipTightOnions · 24/10/2025 10:22

Howseitgoin · 24/10/2025 09:06

I know plenty of cis women who particularly as they age could pass for unmedicalised trans women. Maya Forstater types come to mind. Perhaps that's why she's so 'defensive' about female stereotypes?

I wonder if you have some sort of perception disorder, Howse? Maya looks nothing like a man.

it would explain why you have to rely on “surface level typical associations”, while the rest of us do not.

Helleofabore · 24/10/2025 10:26

I think we have had yet another demonstration too that there are some people who really cannot correctly identify the sex of a person and that they believe that their experience is the universal experience.

MassiveWordSalad · 24/10/2025 10:31

Thanks @Helleofabore for the transcriptions.

Oh the irony of Morgan’s Ogre’s tshirt slogan “Behold better living through science” 🙄

And Howsitgoing just keeps ramping up the misogyny, what the actual fuck ⬇️

I know plenty of cis women who particularly as they age could pass for unmedicalised trans women. Maya Forstater types come to mind. Perhaps that's why she's so 'defensive' about female stereotypes?

If you’re secretly gender critical Howse and just trying to make TRAs look bad, you’re taking it too far now pal.

eatfigs · 24/10/2025 10:41

Not watched it all yet but impression so far is he's getting all the usual male-centred transactivist tropes in, and Mia is swatting them away easily.

AuthorisedCat · 24/10/2025 10:45

Howseitgoin · 24/10/2025 08:22

Of course it won't to you. It's built into the colonial mind to be in denial of the consequences of their actions.

Colonization is a bad thing. No males colonizing female spaces.

Greyskybluesky · 24/10/2025 10:47

Mia's opening statement is magnificent. It says it all. It has everything. I am in awe.

FrippEnos · 24/10/2025 10:53

@Howseitgoin

What rights do trans people not have?

eatfigs · 24/10/2025 10:54

MassiveWordSalad · 24/10/2025 10:31

Thanks @Helleofabore for the transcriptions.

Oh the irony of Morgan’s Ogre’s tshirt slogan “Behold better living through science” 🙄

And Howsitgoing just keeps ramping up the misogyny, what the actual fuck ⬇️

I know plenty of cis women who particularly as they age could pass for unmedicalised trans women. Maya Forstater types come to mind. Perhaps that's why she's so 'defensive' about female stereotypes?

If you’re secretly gender critical Howse and just trying to make TRAs look bad, you’re taking it too far now pal.

Howse is trolling again, he likes to pop up in threads early on so he can divert the conversation towards whatever misogynistic bullshit of the day he's decided to shovel in.

Justme56 · 24/10/2025 10:54

I don’t think MO has any worries on the sex by deception front, no matter what gender journey he’s been on.

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