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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Livestream debate with Mia Hughes and Morgane Oger

233 replies

unwashedanddazed · 24/10/2025 01:27

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WewreIEBhe4

Only heard a few minutes so far. My he has a deep voice!

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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WewreIEBhe4

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Howseitgoin · 24/10/2025 08:37

nauticant · 24/10/2025 08:35

rarely

There are times when we do. To put it another way, sometimes sex matters.

Edited

Of course. But that doesn't change the fact that most times we don't. 'Sex' in essence is about distinctive characteristics between males & females which include but are not limited by reproductive characteristics.

GrassesSedgesRushes · 24/10/2025 08:39

Howseitgoin · 24/10/2025 08:26

Only if you view sex over simplistically as body parts which countries like Canada have long put behind them as a consequence of feminism.

Sex is purely about gametes. How else do you tell your male cannabis plant from your female one? Are you suggesting it is about long hair and clothing? Good thing even Canadian farmers know that to be nonsense.

As for colonialism - gender ideology is American colonialism. There have been huge amounts of money invested by Americans such as the Pritzker family on imposing their ideology in other countries including the Uk. The UK have fought back,

GrassesSedgesRushes · 24/10/2025 08:43

TRAs who declare that sex is just a vague esssnce are unerringly able to identify men when deciding who to support.

Howseitgoin · 24/10/2025 08:48

GrassesSedgesRushes · 24/10/2025 08:39

Sex is purely about gametes. How else do you tell your male cannabis plant from your female one? Are you suggesting it is about long hair and clothing? Good thing even Canadian farmers know that to be nonsense.

As for colonialism - gender ideology is American colonialism. There have been huge amounts of money invested by Americans such as the Pritzker family on imposing their ideology in other countries including the Uk. The UK have fought back,

"Sex is purely about gametes. How else do you tell your male cannabis plant from your female one? Are you suggesting it is about long hair and clothing? Good thing even Canadian farmers know that to be nonsense."

Definitions are based on social usage. Whilst it's true we use gametes to distinguish sex, it's also true we don't in social interactions.

"As for colonialism - gender ideology is American colonialism. There have been huge amounts of money invested by Americans such as the Pritzker family on imposing their ideology in other countries including the Uk. The UK have fought back"

You forgot George Soros & the other alleged 'Jewish investors' in 'white sterilisation' /'white replacement theory' as per Magadalen Berns.

Back to reality. Trans people & their fight for human rights aren't exactly exclusive to the US nor are they a recent 'invention'.

nauticant · 24/10/2025 08:49

The aggressive and reality-denying version of trans activism is very recent.

DialSquare · 24/10/2025 08:50

GrassesSedgesRushes · 24/10/2025 08:43

TRAs who declare that sex is just a vague esssnce are unerringly able to identify men when deciding who to support.

And women when deciding who they identify as.

WeaselCheeks · 24/10/2025 08:51

Howseitgoin · 24/10/2025 07:56

"The legalities can be debated"

Oh really? Like the UK SC ruling on the definition of sex? Glad you see it that way.

It takes a particularly over simplified & misogynistic mind that reduces women to body parts

It's not misogynistic to define the category of woman by their biology, just as it's not misandrist to define the category of man by their biology. Women are born with ovaries/uteruses, etc, men are born with penises and testicles, etc.

In a very small number of cases, you'll get people who are born with disorders that make them intersex, but that doesn't mean that humans are not a sexually dimorphic, sexually binary species - any more than people being born with limb differences or absences chances the fact we're a bipedal species with two arms, two legs, 10 fingers, and so on.

When I think, "What makes me a woman?", I literally can't answer it without resorting to biology. It's not how I dress, my hobbies or interests, or "a feeling". They make up what I am as a person, alongside my biology.

I'm a woman because I was born female, which brings with it expectations and problems that society has enforced on women over history.

Greyskybluesky · 24/10/2025 08:54

I'm laughing so hard at "the colonising self importance of the British" and "cultural superiority"

What if those of us who aren't British and don't have any cultural superiority in our heritage also think men aren't women? Hmmm....

GrassesSedgesRushes · 24/10/2025 08:54

Howseitgoin · 24/10/2025 08:48

"Sex is purely about gametes. How else do you tell your male cannabis plant from your female one? Are you suggesting it is about long hair and clothing? Good thing even Canadian farmers know that to be nonsense."

Definitions are based on social usage. Whilst it's true we use gametes to distinguish sex, it's also true we don't in social interactions.

"As for colonialism - gender ideology is American colonialism. There have been huge amounts of money invested by Americans such as the Pritzker family on imposing their ideology in other countries including the Uk. The UK have fought back"

You forgot George Soros & the other alleged 'Jewish investors' in 'white sterilisation' /'white replacement theory' as per Magadalen Berns.

Back to reality. Trans people & their fight for human rights aren't exactly exclusive to the US nor are they a recent 'invention'.

It was Morgane Ogar’s biology that you used when you immediately recognised him as a man.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 24/10/2025 08:57

Greyskybluesky · 24/10/2025 08:54

I'm laughing so hard at "the colonising self importance of the British" and "cultural superiority"

What if those of us who aren't British and don't have any cultural superiority in our heritage also think men aren't women? Hmmm....

Ooooh I dunno it's a tricky one! I mean how do you square such an impossible circle eh?

MalagaNights · 24/10/2025 08:57

Howseitgoin · 24/10/2025 08:26

Only if you view sex over simplistically as body parts which countries like Canada have long put behind them as a consequence of feminism.

Sex isn't about body parts it's about types of bodies, and the reproductive role of the role of those types of bodies.

There are only two types of bodies with roles in reproduction and you can't change between them.

You can try to change the meaning of the word sex, you can even be successful legally but the 2 reproductive body types remain and they need words to describe them and most people in the world still and will always use the word sex to describe this reality.

You can usually tell which type of body someone has by looking at them (whilstdressed). This is harder when people significantly modify their body to mimic the other type but you still usually can tell.

Fighting against reality must be so exhausting. You have to disguise physical reality, try to make everyone pretend they can't see what you're doing and make everyone change what words mean.

It's not going to work.

It would have been much easier to go: I'm a bloke who wears dresses and make up.
We'd have gone: oh yeh, I can see that.

And we could have agreed a word to describe this phenomenon: trans man.

Howseitgoin · 24/10/2025 09:02

WeaselCheeks · 24/10/2025 08:51

It's not misogynistic to define the category of woman by their biology, just as it's not misandrist to define the category of man by their biology. Women are born with ovaries/uteruses, etc, men are born with penises and testicles, etc.

In a very small number of cases, you'll get people who are born with disorders that make them intersex, but that doesn't mean that humans are not a sexually dimorphic, sexually binary species - any more than people being born with limb differences or absences chances the fact we're a bipedal species with two arms, two legs, 10 fingers, and so on.

When I think, "What makes me a woman?", I literally can't answer it without resorting to biology. It's not how I dress, my hobbies or interests, or "a feeling". They make up what I am as a person, alongside my biology.

I'm a woman because I was born female, which brings with it expectations and problems that society has enforced on women over history.

"It's not misogynistic to define the category of woman by their biology, just as it's not misandrist to define the category of man by their biology. Women are born with ovaries/uteruses, etc, men are born with penises and testicles, etc."

It is if that's what you exclusively define them as. That's what feminism fought against. We wanted to emphasise our psychological interchangeability.

"In a very small number of cases, you'll get people who are born with disorders that make them intersex, but that doesn't mean that humans are not a sexually dimorphic, sexually binary species - any more than people being born with limb differences or absences chances the fact we're a bipedal species with two arms, two legs, 10 fingers, and so on."

No one is suggesting the sexual reproduction system isn't binary. Rather sex characteristics such as chromosomes, hormones & morphology aren't that combined with genes have the capacity to influence ambiguity in outcomes both physically & psychologically.

"When I think, "What makes me a woman?", I literally can't answer it without resorting to biology. It's not how I dress, my hobbies or interests, or "a feeling". They make up what I am as a person, alongside my biology."

Yes in theory most people imagine reproductive biology. But as I said, in practice they don't & definitions aren't just limited to theoretical views but action.

"I'm a woman because I was born female, which brings with it expectations and problems that society has enforced on women over history."

Not all cis women have the same experiences tho & trans women also have some similar experiences.

Howseitgoin · 24/10/2025 09:03

Greyskybluesky · 24/10/2025 08:54

I'm laughing so hard at "the colonising self importance of the British" and "cultural superiority"

What if those of us who aren't British and don't have any cultural superiority in our heritage also think men aren't women? Hmmm....

They don't call it Terf Island for nothing…

Helleofabore · 24/10/2025 09:03

I have copied and pasted the transcript, and tried to get it into paragraphs (and the paragraphing could be incorrectly placed) and fixed a couple of obvious spelling mistakes in the transcript. (I don't know if Oger deliberately called Ruth Bader Ginsburg, 'Bitter Ginsburg', so I left that).

Start:

Morgane Oger: I'm going to be talking about this really interesting topic from the my point of view which is a social point of view so every generation monster and a scandal to justify an attempt to grab some sort of a control. In the 1970s, it was Anita Bryant and her Save Our Children campaign that warned that gay teachers would recruit children. In the 1980s, people were jailed during the satanic panic, a tale of virtual abuse had never happened. In the 2010s, diversity education in Western Canadian schools was branded as a scheme to groom children. We had the DND panic. We had all kinds of other things, movements that come up in opposition to a group. And today we're told gender affirming care and transness is a medical scandal.

That doctors mutilate children, parents are deluded or misguided or given false information, and that trans people are dangerous like the gays were, like Dungeons and Dragons was. But as usual, the lines can lapse under scrutiny. And scrutiny is what matters. The claims rely on fear, not on facts, on anecdote amplified by tabloids and social media personalities, not on science. Science has a rigor. It has a process. It has validation. The urgency and the harm are manufactured. We discover so often, and I propose this is the case here in much of this topic.

Sociologist Stanley Cohen once wrote, "Societies appear to be subject everyone now and then to periods of moral panic. When a condition or group is defined as a threat to societal values or group is demonized, scandal is invented and control is sold as protection.

So across decades and continents, the evidence is consistent. Now we will probably have some debate about this evidence. The W path standards of care version 8 in 2022. Gender affirming care improves mental health and reduces suicidality. The Canadian Pediatric Society in 2023, maybe a less
ideological organization, recommends affirming multidisciplinary care, especially for minors. The AAP in 2018, that's the association, American Association of Pediatrics, I believe, and reaffirmed in 2023 that denial of care increases risk for trans kids. Stats can in 2025 this month reported uh said that trans Canadians report higher life satisfaction and lower suicidal ideation when affirmed.
The data comes in slowly but the data is coming in. The Lancet in 2021, Uh, long-term outcomes show lasting well-being. Affirmation helps, rejection harms, and this is the medical consensus today.

Of course, consensus is not absolute rule. There is always dissent. What happens when fear becomes policy though? In the UK, 17-year-old Leia Samson Grimley recently, not so long ago, died waiting for gender affirming care. She did everything right. Actually, she's like the gold star of how you go through looking for gender affirming care. She reached out. She trusted the system until delays broke her. She happened to do this at a time where the UK was going through a trans panic. The coroner ruled that her death was preventable.

That word preventable should haunt every policy maker hiding behind the cast review which is a politicized UK review whose findings were that we need to do better science and we need to get some better results and more evidence over time intended to improve care. However, the review caused paralysis. The UK utterly stopped providing care to trans youth and trans kids and we're starting to see the consequences of it. Since April 2024, NHS in England has withheld puberty blockers outside research and delayed hormones for minors. Caution is not neutral when young people die.

There's a difference between caution and being slow and caution and refusing thing and causing harm. Right? Caution that costs lives is actually cruelty. The British Medical Association refused to endorse the Cass review because it was quite flawed. A Yale analysis found the review biased and methologically unsound. But the government of the UK implemented it anyways having campaigned on it. And now a child is dead.

Now one child does not make a statistic. I know that. But there will be more. We know there will be more. Liar reminds us that evidence delayed is care denied. And this is really important I think in today's conversation. Canada chose a different path which has been criticized by some people in this room. The Canadian Human Rights Act added gender identity and expression in 2017 to formalize what the legal precedent has been had been saying since the 1990s.

The charter guarantees equality in section 15 and ensures equal rights for women and men. In the eyes of Canadian law, women and men is everybody. They don't take into account non-binary people, Uh so don't get all upset and don't laugh uh at the same time. Um so and that includes and but also that includes trans women under section 28. In ACV Manitoba in 2009 the Supreme Court upheld that minors may consent to care based on capacity not age.

There's very very few things that are limited on age. One of them is gender affirming surgical care. One of the very few things where we with Canadian policy is to say, no, until you're an adult except in extraordinary situations.

Canadian law already balances autonomy and protection and we don't need new exclusions. Just respecting our rights and understanding why rights exist. But opponents of equality disguise control as caution and ideology as science says Menoji. Autogynophilia. The claim that trans women transition from fetish is rejected by all medical bodies that matter. Yet it persists.

W Path and the APA call it unsupported by empirical evidence. Rapid onset dysphoria came from an online parent survey, not clinical research. They literally went and found a chat room of moms who were upset their
kids were trans and pulled them in into creating the subjects for a survey. who found that there's no such thing as being trans and it happens suddenly, says the mom of the trans kids who reject transness. The AAP and CPS state it's not a recognized diagnosis, not a diagnosis, yet waved around under words like
scandal.

In the UK, rape by deception is a thing.

Laws centered around that have been weaponized against trans people for not disclosing gender history. Never been used for not disclosing anything else. and not used against people who don't disclose that they hate trans people. Trapping poor innocent trans people into a relationship with a bigot.

Clutch my pearls.

(So, lost my place.) Legal experts such as Alex Sharp in 2020 condemn this distortion of consent law used to police identity. I invite you to consider how many identities people don't want to find out about you and you shouldn't go to prison over the UN expert on Soji in 2023 warned of a coordinated anti-gender
movement eroding democratic norms.

The southern poverty legal law center in 2023 found overlaps between anti-trans activism and far-right networks. And every time identity equality ideas expand, someone calls it an emergency. Every time I come to a talk like that, someone from some weird violent extreme right group contacts me without fail.

Happened this time. This time it was a slightly different topic, but it's the same thing. When inclusion is practiced, though, harm drops. And this is really about harm.

The Canadian Center for Ethics and Sports found no evidence transincclusion undermines women's sports. UN women in 2024 reported that individually individualized assessments improved fairness and safety. You
respect the rights and the harms fall. You restrict rights and the harms rise.

It's that simple.

But we also have to address women's services and sex based rights. Terms twisted to justify exclusion. I'm sure we're going to get into it tonight. In Canadian and international law, these rights protect from discrimination. They do not authorize discrimination. The CHRC, Canadian Human Rights Commission, CEDAW, I always forget the acronym, but the convention on of the I forget the acronym. It's UN women's rights. And uh, the UN and UN women affirm that women's rights include trans women's rights.

Trans women rely on the same shelters, clinics, and prisons because our risks are the same as cis women for the most part. There might be some specialized differences, but very, very few. And everybody deserves equal. Everybody deserves dignity in a service, especially in a crisis.

Nevertheless, um discrimination is not based on someone else might need something. Discrimination needs to be based on you need something more. You're more vulnerable. We're going to give you a special thing for you because you're more vulnerable. That's the fundamental of our law. TERF rhetoric in the end isn't about protection. It's about power. And when I say TERF, I mean it respectfully, not how I normally mean it.

Transexclusionary radical feminist, which is like a second wave of feminism that talks about the winds women need in the physical world.

So equality is not a zero sum game. And safety built on exclusion isn't safety at all. Limits painted as
safety are still oppression. Ruth Butter uh Bidder A Ginsburg, of course, US Supreme Court judge whose fall brought down Row versus Wade.

Let's put that in context, right? Warned that laws protecting women often kept them in a guilded cage. She talked about this a lot. She talked about how the people in the cage didn't have the key. Justice Bertha Wilson in RV Morgan Tyler the abortion case wrote the right to liberty guarantees a degree of personal autonomy over decisions of fundamental importance to them.

That's why human right, that's what human rights mean protecting autonomy against the comfort of the majority.

Every expansion of rights once seemed radical because it was unknown before it became obvious. Equality in marriage, the right to autonomy on your body, the right of children. That rhythm of progress is how we keep Canada free, fair, and kind. And that's the right way to go. Thank you.

Howseitgoin · 24/10/2025 09:06

GrassesSedgesRushes · 24/10/2025 08:54

It was Morgane Ogar’s biology that you used when you immediately recognised him as a man.

I know plenty of cis women who particularly as they age could pass for unmedicalised trans women. Maya Forstater types come to mind. Perhaps that's why she's so 'defensive' about female stereotypes?

GrassesSedgesRushes · 24/10/2025 09:06

Feminism fought that women should only be defined by our biology, not be harmful regressive gendered expectations or behaviours.

Transideology tries to define women only as a set of regressive harmful gendered expectations and behaviours.

Greyskybluesky · 24/10/2025 09:06

Howseitgoin · 24/10/2025 09:03

They don't call it Terf Island for nothing…

Your response doesn't address my question at all, surprise surprise

But... no "they" don't call it Terf Island for nothing. It's a badge to be worn with pride, that the UK questioned this kind of shit and stood up for women

MalagaNights · 24/10/2025 09:06

Howseitgoin · 24/10/2025 08:48

"Sex is purely about gametes. How else do you tell your male cannabis plant from your female one? Are you suggesting it is about long hair and clothing? Good thing even Canadian farmers know that to be nonsense."

Definitions are based on social usage. Whilst it's true we use gametes to distinguish sex, it's also true we don't in social interactions.

"As for colonialism - gender ideology is American colonialism. There have been huge amounts of money invested by Americans such as the Pritzker family on imposing their ideology in other countries including the Uk. The UK have fought back"

You forgot George Soros & the other alleged 'Jewish investors' in 'white sterilisation' /'white replacement theory' as per Magadalen Berns.

Back to reality. Trans people & their fight for human rights aren't exactly exclusive to the US nor are they a recent 'invention'.

True that in social interactions I judge someone's sex by observation, then use the social convention for that sex.

So when I see a man pretending to be a women I use male pronouns. Even though I haven't seen his gametes.

You can correctly observe someone's sex 99% of the time.

Yes a very rare man might have put so much effort into changing his appearance to look like a women that I may be mistaken.

But once I find out my initial observation was wrong I can revert to the social conventions for men and women.

This seems to fit with both your position that it's all just socially observed and implemented and mine that there's an underlying biological reality to these conventions.

Helleofabore · 24/10/2025 09:10

Howseitgoin · 24/10/2025 09:06

I know plenty of cis women who particularly as they age could pass for unmedicalised trans women. Maya Forstater types come to mind. Perhaps that's why she's so 'defensive' about female stereotypes?

The posts looking very suspiciously like hatred of women are coming through again.

I know plenty of cis women who particularly as they age could pass for unmedicalised trans women. Maya Forstater types come to mind. Perhaps that's why she's so 'defensive' about female stereotypes?

Fuck, this is grim.

Greyskybluesky · 24/10/2025 09:10

Howseitgoin · 24/10/2025 09:06

I know plenty of cis women who particularly as they age could pass for unmedicalised trans women. Maya Forstater types come to mind. Perhaps that's why she's so 'defensive' about female stereotypes?

I know plenty of cis women who particularly as they age could pass for unmedicalised trans women. Maya Forstater types come to mind. Perhaps that's why she's so 'defensive' about female stereotypes?

And here we have it: a nasty, poisonous and derogatory personal insult - in black and white for all to see.

I hope H's comment is not deleted. It perfectly demonstrates the level of TRA thinking, or should that be "thinking"

It's alllll about the looks

terryleather · 24/10/2025 09:10

Greyskybluesky · 24/10/2025 08:54

I'm laughing so hard at "the colonising self importance of the British" and "cultural superiority"

What if those of us who aren't British and don't have any cultural superiority in our heritage also think men aren't women? Hmmm....

While we’re on the subject, I’m struck by the colonising self importance of men who demand we call them women…

Soontobe60 · 24/10/2025 09:11

So I’ve just watched the first half of the video and the overarching impression I get is that there is a female and a male debating, and the male is constantly interrupting, going off on a tangent, insulting the female in a passive-aggressive manner, looks very male, sounds very male, sits at the table like a male. I cannot ever accept the belief he has that he’s now a woman. His main argument seems to be that the law in Canada believes people can change sex so therefore he is female.
Utter nonsense.

Howseitgoin · 24/10/2025 09:12

MalagaNights · 24/10/2025 08:57

Sex isn't about body parts it's about types of bodies, and the reproductive role of the role of those types of bodies.

There are only two types of bodies with roles in reproduction and you can't change between them.

You can try to change the meaning of the word sex, you can even be successful legally but the 2 reproductive body types remain and they need words to describe them and most people in the world still and will always use the word sex to describe this reality.

You can usually tell which type of body someone has by looking at them (whilstdressed). This is harder when people significantly modify their body to mimic the other type but you still usually can tell.

Fighting against reality must be so exhausting. You have to disguise physical reality, try to make everyone pretend they can't see what you're doing and make everyone change what words mean.

It's not going to work.

It would have been much easier to go: I'm a bloke who wears dresses and make up.
We'd have gone: oh yeh, I can see that.

And we could have agreed a word to describe this phenomenon: trans man.

"You can try to change the meaning of the word sex, you can even be successful legally but the 2 reproductive body types remain and they need words to describe them and most people in the world still and will always use the word sex to describe this reality."

They do it's called 'CIS'.

"You can usually tell which type of body someone has by looking at them (whilstdressed). This is harder when people significantly modify their body to mimic the other type but you still usually can tell."

How would you know for sure? Did you conduct gametal tests after? Have you witnessed every trans person on earth.

There's this thing called 'biological variation' where all sorts of morphological are possible. The idea 'you can always tell' is biologically s illiterate.

"Fighting against reality must be so exhausting. You have to disguise physical reality, try to make everyone pretend they can't see what you're doing and make everyone change what words mean."

Welcome to women's world. 😂

Soontobe60 · 24/10/2025 09:12

Howseitgoin · 24/10/2025 08:33

Social distinctions are material reality. We rarely distinguish men from women using gametal evaluations in our everyday social interactions, rather surface level typical associations.

If you think we don’t know the sex of someone stood in front of us, you’re totally deluded.

GrassesSedgesRushes · 24/10/2025 09:13

You claim to support trans identified men, then use their appearance as an insult?

Maya Forstater is not ‘cis’ - she does not have a gender and certainly doesn’t identify with regressive gendered expectations for her sex.

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