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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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27
GrassesSedgesRushes · 24/10/2025 09:00

GoldThumb · 24/10/2025 08:55

So they are absolutely definitely not trying to widen the scope, but are relying on the support of victims who were not in scope and want to widen the scope, to prove they are not widening the scope?

Got it.

And the grooming gang victims were obviously lying to suggest they are. They just got a charity that supports a broad range of victims of sexual crime to ask irrelevant questions of their members for no reason…

GoldThumb · 24/10/2025 09:05

GrassesSedgesRushes · 24/10/2025 09:00

And the grooming gang victims were obviously lying to suggest they are. They just got a charity that supports a broad range of victims of sexual crime to ask irrelevant questions of their members for no reason…

Exactly.

Side point, I’ve just realised how much I hate the term ‘weaponising’

Have seen it popping up all over SM in relation to the victims, or others backing them up.

It basically means ‘I have unilaterally decided upon your motive, therefore anything you say to prove your point is being argued in bad faith, stop saying to things that prove your point, while I continue to argue for the correct ‘moral’ cause’

OP posts:
OneAmberFinch · 24/10/2025 09:56

GrassesSedgesRushes · 24/10/2025 08:50

What sets these grooming gangs apart is not the crime but the response to it. The fact that the crimes were ignored, the girls arrested instead of the men, the politicians telling them to keep their mouths shut for the sake of diversity, the environment where it was allowed to happen with impunity to thousand and thousands of girls to avoid upsetting certain communities.

What is your view on the tension I describe in the quoted post though?

This is a separate discussion from "should we widen the scope to all CSE".

TheDearOtter · 24/10/2025 10:15

She's hardly goyt an unbiased view though. having a victim on the panel is in my mind a case of c onflict of interest. and will alwasy have a biased slant. regardless of the topic.
besides which - like so many of its type before - it will fail - becuase tis entire country are mysoginistic bastards who wouldnt carry out reccomendations if their lives depended on them!

GrassesSedgesRushes · 24/10/2025 10:20

OneAmberFinch · 24/10/2025 09:56

What is your view on the tension I describe in the quoted post though?

This is a separate discussion from "should we widen the scope to all CSE".

I don’t see a tension, other than that created by those still trying to brush this under the carpet. It is just whataboutery

GrassesSedgesRushes · 24/10/2025 10:22

TheDearOtter · 24/10/2025 10:15

She's hardly goyt an unbiased view though. having a victim on the panel is in my mind a case of c onflict of interest. and will alwasy have a biased slant. regardless of the topic.
besides which - like so many of its type before - it will fail - becuase tis entire country are mysoginistic bastards who wouldnt carry out reccomendations if their lives depended on them!

That is why it should have been a judicial appointment.

OneAmberFinch · 24/10/2025 10:39

GrassesSedgesRushes · 24/10/2025 10:20

I don’t see a tension, other than that created by those still trying to brush this under the carpet. It is just whataboutery

Have you read my multiple posts on this thread expressing fury that this is being diluted, and railing against the obvious incentives from those running it to water it down?

My question is

When the public talks about sticking to the narrow and focused scope, is that on grooming gangs, emphasis on the grooming aspect (so someone gang-raped by a Pakistani gang in a one-off attack would not be included)

Or are they using grooming gangs as a euphemism for Pakistani Muslim rape gangs, emphasis on the ethnic links / brotherhood / racial animus motivation aspect as well as diversity coverups etc (so someone raped by a white grooming gang would not be included)

As I've said multiple times I think there is a lot of incentive for a lot of people to dilute this, I'm not denying that; my point is that at some point they do need to define the specific crime they are investigating here and set expectations.

It would be possible to derail this investigation a different way, for example, by having an extremely narrow definition of "grooming" that eliminated many cases.

SionnachRuadh · 24/10/2025 11:36

OneAmberFinch · 24/10/2025 10:39

Have you read my multiple posts on this thread expressing fury that this is being diluted, and railing against the obvious incentives from those running it to water it down?

My question is

When the public talks about sticking to the narrow and focused scope, is that on grooming gangs, emphasis on the grooming aspect (so someone gang-raped by a Pakistani gang in a one-off attack would not be included)

Or are they using grooming gangs as a euphemism for Pakistani Muslim rape gangs, emphasis on the ethnic links / brotherhood / racial animus motivation aspect as well as diversity coverups etc (so someone raped by a white grooming gang would not be included)

As I've said multiple times I think there is a lot of incentive for a lot of people to dilute this, I'm not denying that; my point is that at some point they do need to define the specific crime they are investigating here and set expectations.

It would be possible to derail this investigation a different way, for example, by having an extremely narrow definition of "grooming" that eliminated many cases.

Or are they using grooming gangs as a euphemism for Pakistani Muslim rape gangs, emphasis on the ethnic links / brotherhood / racial animus motivation aspect as well as diversity coverups etc (so someone raped by a white grooming gang would not be included)

I think this is the thing for me - not simply the rape but the organised crime/extended family aspect which also ties into corruption, political coverups etc.

On whether it could be extended - there's been the historical institutional abuse inquiry in Northern Ireland, which is not only Catholic institutions but e.g. children's homes run by other denominations or on a non-religious basis. That works because it's basically the same thing.

I think one of the problems is that we feel uncomfortable saying we're going to be investigating crimes associated with a particular ethnic group. That's a strong motivation, apart from any other incentives, to look for anything vaguely similar that could be bolted on.

So we keep hearing about "white grooming gangs", and I allow it's possible that there are predominantly or exclusively white gangs that use similar tactics, but that misses out the important angle of racial/religious animus and the difference in ethnicity between perpetrators and victims. So it's not really the same.

Or if we're talking about sex crimes among ethnic minorities - there's an ongoing problem of sex abuse in certain Hasidic Jewish groups, and they're difficult for outsiders to penetrate, but there the abuse is internally directed and doesn't impact on the surrounding community. So not the same.

The closest you might come is the Albanian gangs who run most of the sex trade in London, but that also misses out a lot of the important angles. The racial/religious animus isn't really there, and institutional support for the gangs will mostly be a matter of bent coppers.

So I don't think there's a direct equivalent. The distinctive things about the Pakistani grooming gangs are the racial/religious aspect with the targeting of out-group victims; the very dense extended family networks involved; and the institutional corruption in a whole series of towns and cities involving police, local councils and social services, with the Labour Party at the hub.

It's that last bit, the institutional corruption bit, that terrifies Labour, because if the truth comes out it could destroy them across the North and Midlands, and the more they cover up, the worse the blowback will be.

Lalgarh · 24/10/2025 11:54

The unspoken thing here is the family networks. This isn't ordinary criminal activity between associates, this is clan based. If anything it's the feudalism that drives this. I'm not sure how this maps onto the crime family model ppl might be more familiar with in Sicily or dirt poor areas of Italy.

I mean, there's this

https://www.reddit.com/r/pakistan/comments/sslbgb/why_do_pakistanis_look_down_on_mirpuris/

GrassesSedgesRushes · 24/10/2025 12:10

SionnachRuadh · 24/10/2025 11:36

Or are they using grooming gangs as a euphemism for Pakistani Muslim rape gangs, emphasis on the ethnic links / brotherhood / racial animus motivation aspect as well as diversity coverups etc (so someone raped by a white grooming gang would not be included)

I think this is the thing for me - not simply the rape but the organised crime/extended family aspect which also ties into corruption, political coverups etc.

On whether it could be extended - there's been the historical institutional abuse inquiry in Northern Ireland, which is not only Catholic institutions but e.g. children's homes run by other denominations or on a non-religious basis. That works because it's basically the same thing.

I think one of the problems is that we feel uncomfortable saying we're going to be investigating crimes associated with a particular ethnic group. That's a strong motivation, apart from any other incentives, to look for anything vaguely similar that could be bolted on.

So we keep hearing about "white grooming gangs", and I allow it's possible that there are predominantly or exclusively white gangs that use similar tactics, but that misses out the important angle of racial/religious animus and the difference in ethnicity between perpetrators and victims. So it's not really the same.

Or if we're talking about sex crimes among ethnic minorities - there's an ongoing problem of sex abuse in certain Hasidic Jewish groups, and they're difficult for outsiders to penetrate, but there the abuse is internally directed and doesn't impact on the surrounding community. So not the same.

The closest you might come is the Albanian gangs who run most of the sex trade in London, but that also misses out a lot of the important angles. The racial/religious animus isn't really there, and institutional support for the gangs will mostly be a matter of bent coppers.

So I don't think there's a direct equivalent. The distinctive things about the Pakistani grooming gangs are the racial/religious aspect with the targeting of out-group victims; the very dense extended family networks involved; and the institutional corruption in a whole series of towns and cities involving police, local councils and social services, with the Labour Party at the hub.

It's that last bit, the institutional corruption bit, that terrifies Labour, because if the truth comes out it could destroy them across the North and Midlands, and the more they cover up, the worse the blowback will be.

This. What ties these crimes together is the corruption that went along with it to hide the crimes/blame the girls rather than confront the fact that it is tied to a specific racial group. Yes ‘grooming gangs’ is a euphemism that the public are well aware of and we well know the problem of ‘inclusive language’ and how it is used to hide the truth.

SionnachRuadh · 24/10/2025 12:16

I'm not an ethnographer, but there's a definite Mediterranean friends-of-Frank-Sinatra style of crime that's based on clans rather than "gangs" as Brits understand them. You get that in Sicily, Calabria, Malta, Albania, Montenegro. And then in diaspora communities.

A lot of that will be a function of feudalism and economic backwardness. I get the impression that Pakistanis from Karachi or Lahore think of Mirpuris the way Italians from Rome or Milan think of Sicilians.

Normie white Brits have a problem grasping minority crime because they're not used to thinking in extended family terms.

OneAmberFinch · 24/10/2025 16:08

@SionnachRuadh I think one of the problems is that we feel uncomfortable saying we're going to be investigating crimes associated with a particular ethnic group. That's a strong motivation, apart from any other incentives, to look for anything vaguely similar that could be bolted on.

Yes - spot on. I think what that one survivor case example made me think is, I think it's important to be explicit in the wording. As far as I can tell the exact terms haven't been set yet but it's called the "grooming gangs inquiry" - I could definitely see a path where you said "that girl was drugged by the taxi driver not groomed so it doesn't count, but this other girl was groomed by her white teacher and his mate so it does count" and then it turns into something else.

I guess there is public interest in investigating specifically grooming of vulnerable girls and how social workers can identify it, including noting ethnic patterns, but focused specifically on safeguarding from grooming.

I just don't think that's what the general public are imagining which is something closer to a mafia family takedown as you describe.

OneAmberFinch · 24/10/2025 16:23

Fwiw, I'd love to see specifically an investigation into the entirety of these networks and different types of crime (e.g., heroin trafficking) and how they are covered up - I think that would probably be too much of an expansion of scope though (for this round, anyway).

givenitupnow · 24/10/2025 16:29

This government will never conduct a proper inquiry into this. They will never name the obvious characteristics of the perpetrators, or the criminal, business and family connections that link all of them, the length and breadth of the country. They will never admit the links to the authority figures who were/are related to the perpetrators in local councils, safeguarding teams, social services, police, labour party, all the way up to central government. They are all far too interested in preserving their own power and status and saving their own skins. The labour party actually sacked their own MPs, destroyed the careers of whistle blowers. The police arrested parents who tried to save their children.
Hypocrites, the lot of them.

YourAmplePlumPoster · 24/10/2025 18:19

Why invite more of them in and mumsnetters defend it? And call those who are concerned about it racist? Reap what you sow.
Asylum seeker laughed after killing hotel worker Rhiannon Whyte, jury told - BBC News share.google/JwsOgQipWM85l9Lkg

YourAmplePlumPoster · 24/10/2025 18:21

Betting there wont be an article about male violence in The Guardian.

YourAmplePlumPoster · 24/10/2025 18:23

I guess she doesn't matter because she was a lowly, overweight working class woman doing a low grade job. No outrage.

OhDear111 · 24/10/2025 18:39

The attached is from Hansard on 15 Sept 25 in response to questions about slow progress. These Inquiries often struggle to find a Chair and the consultation on terms of reference won’t help matters. It’s not a quick process and the Government should take the lead here. It’s trying to be inclusive but failing to get going.

Fiona Goddard, a victim of the grooming gang, has resigned from enquiry panel
YourAmplePlumPoster · 24/10/2025 18:48

We invited in a certain demographic who have regressive ideas about women and girls and the feminist mumsnetters say this should be tolerated because it's racism if you criticise it. As WW2 Commander Harris said of the Nazis: "They reaped the wind and sowed the whirlwind."

YourAmplePlumPoster · 24/10/2025 18:55

Let's face it, the middle class social workers who read The Guardian are mostly complicit in this abuse because they are enthralled by "diversity" and continue to be enthralled as it seems many mumsnetters are. Mainly because their own family and neighbourhood will never get anywhere in the least bit "diverse."

Clavinova · 24/10/2025 21:40

Imnobody4 · 23/10/2025 21:08

So is this the right charity.

https://nwgnetwork.org/about-us/
The NWG Network is a charitable organisation formed as a UK network of over 20,000 practitioners who disseminate our information through their services, to professionals working on the issue of child exploitation (CE) and trafficking within the UK.

They should have been given the remit of a laser like focus on grooming gangs. The victims panel should have been just victims of grooming gangs.
This really is on Jess Phillips shoulders.

Just looked at the charity's website - it's somewhat revealing that they promote this article by Dr Ella Cockbain (2019) critiquing the Quilliam Foundation’s report on 'grooming gangs'. Whilst Dr Cockbain has some valid criticisms, she spends much of the article linking 'Asian grooming gang' concerns to the 'far-right bandwagon':

https://nwgnetwork.org/?s=grooming+gangs
https://policinginsight.com/feature/analysis/when-bad-evidence-is-worse-than-no-evidence-quilliams-grooming-gangs-report-and-its-legacy/

Lalgarh · 24/10/2025 21:50

Of course she's had guardian articles

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/may/08/asian-sex-gangs-on-street-grooming.
.

https://www.theguardian.com/profile/ella-cockbain

Echoing @SionnachRuadh on the phenomenon of "Republican pounce" and a similar Socialist Worker article. If your main objection into looking into an issue is "it could embolden The Other Side", it's already doomed

Ella Cockbain | The Guardian

<p>Dr Ella Cockbain is an associate professor in security and crime science at University College London, where she is the research group lead on human trafficking, smuggling and exploitation</p>

https://www.theguardian.com/profile/ella-cockbain

Lalgarh · 24/10/2025 22:01

Has migrated to Bluesky to post on how anti trafficking work fetishes victimhood

https://bsky.app/profile/drellac.bsky.social

And has sex worker envy

https://bsky.app/profile/drellac.bsky.social/post/3lcg7irm4e22g

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/10/2025 03:44

SionnachRuadh · 24/10/2025 11:36

Or are they using grooming gangs as a euphemism for Pakistani Muslim rape gangs, emphasis on the ethnic links / brotherhood / racial animus motivation aspect as well as diversity coverups etc (so someone raped by a white grooming gang would not be included)

I think this is the thing for me - not simply the rape but the organised crime/extended family aspect which also ties into corruption, political coverups etc.

On whether it could be extended - there's been the historical institutional abuse inquiry in Northern Ireland, which is not only Catholic institutions but e.g. children's homes run by other denominations or on a non-religious basis. That works because it's basically the same thing.

I think one of the problems is that we feel uncomfortable saying we're going to be investigating crimes associated with a particular ethnic group. That's a strong motivation, apart from any other incentives, to look for anything vaguely similar that could be bolted on.

So we keep hearing about "white grooming gangs", and I allow it's possible that there are predominantly or exclusively white gangs that use similar tactics, but that misses out the important angle of racial/religious animus and the difference in ethnicity between perpetrators and victims. So it's not really the same.

Or if we're talking about sex crimes among ethnic minorities - there's an ongoing problem of sex abuse in certain Hasidic Jewish groups, and they're difficult for outsiders to penetrate, but there the abuse is internally directed and doesn't impact on the surrounding community. So not the same.

The closest you might come is the Albanian gangs who run most of the sex trade in London, but that also misses out a lot of the important angles. The racial/religious animus isn't really there, and institutional support for the gangs will mostly be a matter of bent coppers.

So I don't think there's a direct equivalent. The distinctive things about the Pakistani grooming gangs are the racial/religious aspect with the targeting of out-group victims; the very dense extended family networks involved; and the institutional corruption in a whole series of towns and cities involving police, local councils and social services, with the Labour Party at the hub.

It's that last bit, the institutional corruption bit, that terrifies Labour, because if the truth comes out it could destroy them across the North and Midlands, and the more they cover up, the worse the blowback will be.

This is the heart of the matter. Brilliant post.

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