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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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27
Swiftasthewind · 28/10/2025 13:13

Jimmy Saville was loved by the British public and if you see clips of him on the telly, what was going was blatantly obvious. Why is there no inquiry into why the culture of our country turns a blind eye to abuse of children?

Greyskybluesky · 28/10/2025 13:15

Swiftasthewind · 28/10/2025 13:13

Jimmy Saville was loved by the British public and if you see clips of him on the telly, what was going was blatantly obvious. Why is there no inquiry into why the culture of our country turns a blind eye to abuse of children?

if you see clips of him on the telly, what was going was blatantly obvious.

I'm sorry?
I assume you went to the police and reported him then, at the time?

OneAmberFinch · 28/10/2025 13:19

Imnobody4 · 28/10/2025 12:53

I just cannot process the level of cold depravity of these men. This is organised crime.

www.thetimes.com/article/55ba441f-e462-43c1-a1a5-d051253f2784?shareToken=a4067ea4d2276db36ed70483dad9b4ed

Grooming gang family members have been applying for jobs at charities to “threaten and intimidate” victims into silence, The Times has been told.

Despite perpetrators being on watchlists or in prison, their relatives have routinely tried to “infiltrate” organisations that support the survivors of sexual exploitation.

Paul O’Rourke, the managing director of Next Stage Youth Development, which has helped four girls abused by Rochdale grooming gangs, said the problem was “really common” in the sector but has been overlooked amid the national outcry.

And yet people still have this idea that the only problem with the institutions is a few 70s-style bent coppers.

Honest question: what legal, HR approved mechanism is there to deny someone employment if you suspect that this is their motivation? Assume by relatives you mean some kind of 2nd cousin "in the community".

SionnachRuadh · 28/10/2025 13:24

OneAmberFinch · 28/10/2025 13:19

And yet people still have this idea that the only problem with the institutions is a few 70s-style bent coppers.

Honest question: what legal, HR approved mechanism is there to deny someone employment if you suspect that this is their motivation? Assume by relatives you mean some kind of 2nd cousin "in the community".

I used to work in a judicial environment where I sometimes had to say "I know that person, I can't look at their case file."

Normie Brits are great believers in fair play and institutions working impartially.

Connected to that, they don't like holding people responsible for the sins of the father, let along the sins of the cousin.

It's hard to say "we shouldn't employ Faiza in this sensitive role because three of her cousins are nonces", but the facts of the situation might put us in that position. Because the alternative is the integrity of the institutions being called into question.

OneAmberFinch · 28/10/2025 15:20

SionnachRuadh · 28/10/2025 13:24

I used to work in a judicial environment where I sometimes had to say "I know that person, I can't look at their case file."

Normie Brits are great believers in fair play and institutions working impartially.

Connected to that, they don't like holding people responsible for the sins of the father, let along the sins of the cousin.

It's hard to say "we shouldn't employ Faiza in this sensitive role because three of her cousins are nonces", but the facts of the situation might put us in that position. Because the alternative is the integrity of the institutions being called into question.

I agree but I think it would literally be illegal? Assuming "Faiza" has committed no crimes herself to date and is otherwise a qualified candidate. IANAL but this sounds like something Faiza could trivially claim is straightforward ethnic discrimination.

Unless there is some kind of ethnic sensitivity exemption...?

I am just really struggling to imagine what legal justifications you might have, even if you were very sure that Faiza would immediately try to get her hands on info for her cousins. To be clear I don't just mean inbuilt natural reticence on the part of British people, I mean how would the legal framework treat this example?

SionnachRuadh · 28/10/2025 15:29

OneAmberFinch · 28/10/2025 15:20

I agree but I think it would literally be illegal? Assuming "Faiza" has committed no crimes herself to date and is otherwise a qualified candidate. IANAL but this sounds like something Faiza could trivially claim is straightforward ethnic discrimination.

Unless there is some kind of ethnic sensitivity exemption...?

I am just really struggling to imagine what legal justifications you might have, even if you were very sure that Faiza would immediately try to get her hands on info for her cousins. To be clear I don't just mean inbuilt natural reticence on the part of British people, I mean how would the legal framework treat this example?

I agree, our legal system is not set up for this. It's one of those wicked problems, like in old time Northern Ireland where we needed to move away from not having Catholics in certain jobs, but at the same time you might have sensitive jobs where there was a genuine risk of info leaking to the IRA.

So I don't think you can legally say, we won't employ "Faiza" because she comes from a community under suspicion or even an extended family under suspicion - because, even leaving discrimination aside, she might be a good egg who wants to sort the problem out. But the corruption of institutions makes it a lot harder to sustain that anti-discrimination position.

Lalgarh · 28/10/2025 15:36

SionnachRuadh · 28/10/2025 13:24

I used to work in a judicial environment where I sometimes had to say "I know that person, I can't look at their case file."

Normie Brits are great believers in fair play and institutions working impartially.

Connected to that, they don't like holding people responsible for the sins of the father, let along the sins of the cousin.

It's hard to say "we shouldn't employ Faiza in this sensitive role because three of her cousins are nonces", but the facts of the situation might put us in that position. Because the alternative is the integrity of the institutions being called into question.

It's almost like you'd have to have a declaration like for some organisations if you are a member of the Masons. I don't think DV or disclosure and barring goes into the depths of extended kinship networks.

There was a known campaign group who used to picket the trials and were communicating with convicted offenders to dig up dirt on the victims called Fighting For Fair Trials, and also False Allegations Support Organisation
(https://false-allegations.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/demoleeds.pdf,

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14655407/amp/shocking-protest-groups-claim-grooming-gang-trials-racist.html)

SionnachRuadh · 28/10/2025 15:44

The NI comparison isn't one I make casually, because to a very large extent the IRA did run on extended family networks. And still does - when I see Sinn Fein give a candidacy in a safe seat to some 25 year old who I've never heard of, I always think "I bet she's got at least one uncle in the IRA", and that's invariably true.

I do think, apart from the law, there's something in British culture that revolts against judging an individual by who they might be related to. But then to most Brits, second cousins are so distant they probably don't know who their second cousins are, and they can't wrap their heads around communities that don't function that way.

UtopiaPlanitia · 03/11/2025 01:23

SionnachRuadh · 28/10/2025 15:44

The NI comparison isn't one I make casually, because to a very large extent the IRA did run on extended family networks. And still does - when I see Sinn Fein give a candidacy in a safe seat to some 25 year old who I've never heard of, I always think "I bet she's got at least one uncle in the IRA", and that's invariably true.

I do think, apart from the law, there's something in British culture that revolts against judging an individual by who they might be related to. But then to most Brits, second cousins are so distant they probably don't know who their second cousins are, and they can't wrap their heads around communities that don't function that way.

I agree. In the rural Northern Irish Catholic community that I grew up in, family networks were extensive (as families were often large) and multiple generations & branches lived close beside each other and had close ties.

People could grow up among their first cousins (and those cousins' children), their parents' cousins and their grandparents' cousins and see them on a regular basis in daily life and these people are considered to be family who can be turned to for favours and expected to be able to do favours for you. And you don't slag off, or wrong, somebody's cousin (of any generation) because then you'll have insulted the entire family...

i remember having to explain this to an English friend of mine decades ago because she thought it was weird that I and 4 of my cousins were at the same Uni at the same time.

RobustPastry · 03/11/2025 06:54

That’s very interesting about the different meanings of family networks. I think in many parts of UK society especially with the costs of housing in the SE, for many people, their families have completely different (ie none) expectations of extended family obligations or relationships, even from aunts and uncles, or even between siblings once they leave hiome. because they virtually never actually see them, let alone grow up living around them. Unless there’s a grandparent figure who wants to get their children and grandchildren together very regularly and the far flung children and grandchildren are up for doing that, which takes a certain level
of income and time privilege and pre-existing good relationships to make happen. many families are very atomised in how they are able to or expect to live unless they’re very rich or very poor.

So I guess that means that many (not all) key people relevant to decision-making around these issues who are working in the legal system, or in policy making in the civil service, or especially in the elected political hierarchy, or are working in many record keeping public services like the NHS, will have absolutely no experience or understanding of how differently other families live, which will affect how they think they should manage these kinds of situations re access to information or family bias issues. There will be intense resistance to changing these mindsets for fear of stereotyping so universal policies will need to be adopted. It’s a tricky one to change and will be important to discuss with many sectors of society and get right and be vigilant about. That takes trust and goodwilll and new public money which seems likely to be in short supply so it needs to have support from elevated politicians who can decide to allocate money to it.

Feels like a job for one of the UK’s national Law commissions to review the law around this, for starters, but that’s where these wider thinking projects may be flawed. Would need to be highly collaborative to be able to reflect reality and be nuanced.

Dont get me wrong all public bodies should be trained in doing this kind of listening work to communities (but those would be the exceptions and clearly very many aren’t). I’d say currently most organisations consider themselves consultative by carrying out their minimum statutory consultation requirements on a pre existing policy proposal on which and they only really expect to hear back from other organisations in the traditional comfortable way. As opposed to what would be much more effective, forming the policy ideas in the first place, by working closely with affected community members or grassroots groups. Much more challenging and costly and much harder politically to work closely with the many groups of people that if implemented, that work would affect, in that necessary way.

Carla786 · 08/11/2025 19:08

InsectsMatter · 26/10/2025 15:34

Jess Philips has to appease her Islamic constituency otherwise she will lose her seat so is prioritising her career over these exploited girls.

To play devil's advocate : maybe she's worried that of she loses her seat, the person who comes after will be totally in the pocket of the gangs etc and their allies?

I don't think that's an excuse at all, esp as there are 3 years until the next election. Just wondering if that might be a factor : sceptical though.

Carla786 · 08/11/2025 19:10

OneAmberFinch · 25/10/2025 21:38

I think this is what the kids call "noticing"...

What are the kids noticing?

Carla786 · 08/11/2025 19:12

BundleBoogie · 25/10/2025 19:03

Wow thanks for sharing. It is quite an eye opener that non Chinese Asian and black men are so drastically over represented compared to white and Chinese Asian. I assume this is despite attempts by those invested in certain views to obscure the data.

And the proportion of these men in our country is growing as while we have a net migration of circa 400k per year (I think roughly) , the majority of those leaving will be white and there will be more Asian and black men entering so it skews the overall mix in society.

Black men? I thought the grooming gangs were nearly all Pakistani men

Carla786 · 08/11/2025 19:15

OneAmberFinch · 25/10/2025 21:38

I think this is what the kids call "noticing"...

Are you referring to noticing things about black men? Asian men? Both?

Incidentally, the writer Steve Sailer published a book called that about his views on race some years back. Is that what you are referring to?

Carla786 · 08/11/2025 19:21

YourAmplePlumPoster · 24/10/2025 18:55

Let's face it, the middle class social workers who read The Guardian are mostly complicit in this abuse because they are enthralled by "diversity" and continue to be enthralled as it seems many mumsnetters are. Mainly because their own family and neighbourhood will never get anywhere in the least bit "diverse."

I think differently. My own neighbourhood could be described as diverse : the difference is that thus is mainly due to fairly secular middle-class professionals emigrating who have no interest in committing crimes.

I think a lot of the kinds of people you mention probably assume that this is always what diversity entails. Ironically treating all people of different ethnicities as the same, ignoring factors like clannishness, fundamentalist religion, honour codes etc

Carla786 · 08/11/2025 19:22

Bringemout · 23/10/2025 18:51

Yeah it’s basically laziness on their part. I got accused of not liking Khan because he’s a muslim. Really annoying as an ethnic minority myself, I can dislike someone for being a twat.

Completely agree with you, to me he’s basically the same as any male Labour politician. I saw a picture of him once with his family, his daughters were wearing short skirts, no islamist would be letting that slide. It’s bollocks really.

Yes, It's like NY Republicans calling Mamdani an Islamist who wants to introduce a caliphate.

Carla786 · 08/11/2025 19:39

givenitupnow · 23/10/2025 10:42

I don't think the labour party ever wanted to acknowledge what has happened and is still happening, let alone actually have an inquiry. This is their worst nightmare. How can they possibly enable the fallout from the exposure of the appalling corruption in local government, the labour party, social services, the care system, the police and so on.
I am in no way suggesting that any of the other political parties are any better, just that the evidence is overwhelming and the cover up has been worse than Jimmy Saville, Cyril Smith, the Met Police, to name just 3 high profile scandals of the top of my head.

Frankly I don't trust any institutions to take sexual abuse of minors or adults seriously.

On the left, we have the grooming gangs.

Across the spectrum & in the US too, we have the Epstein circle.

Lord Mountbatten's Kincora abuse ring is alleged to have included many establishment figures including prominent Tory MPs, a friend of Prince Charles, a Bank of England governors and an Eton headmaster. The cover up seems to have included many Tory MPs including possibly Thatcher, as well as MI5 and the royal family.

I hope we don't see a Reform election- I don't trust them, nor do I think they are virtuous & untainted. I think most establishment people of all parties are tainted by coverups.

My hope is that we can try & focus on those individuals who do have integrity and push for then to be appointed. We need to purge corruption as strongly as we can.

Carla786 · 08/11/2025 21:05

SionnachRuadh · 23/10/2025 12:34

Zarah Sultana is also planning to chicken run from Coventry, where she's never been popular, to Birmingham Ladywood to stand against Shabana Mahmood, who's also of Mirpuri origin. That will be fascinating if it happens.

Shabana is a quite devout Muslim, deeply rooted in her local community, and one of the very few Labour MPs who openly describes herself as socially conservative, and while she was run close last year, her challenger was a hardcore Muslim sectarian charging her essentially with not being Muslim enough. If her challenger is a young woman who's nominally Muslim but in fact atheist, who embraces rainbow alphabet politics and who's married to a white bloke... I think Shabana will be much less worried.

Their lines on the inquiry will be interesting. Mahmood has, I think, taken the view that this is a terrible disgrace for the community and it needs to be sorted out, and on a more political level, you don't fight Tommy Robinson by proving him right. Sultana (who's very chummy with the SWP these days) is more likely to say the inquiry is a far right dogwhistle.

Thus would be interesting: I really like Shabana and hope so strongly that she wins. As pp said, sadly I worry that Sultana can't oust her but maybe a Gaza independent/sectarian type can.

On Shabana being socially conservative : imo she hits a sweet spot where she's not an extremely fundamentalist Muslim (she's clearly pro-women's rights and voted for gay marriage, for which she & other Muslim MPs were threatened), but she's sensibly socially conservative in the way the old Labour Party was : compassionate and clearly opposed to racism but firm on the need for immigration boundaries, for one thing, vocal about the grooming gangs for another. I also think her religion is important : I'm Christian myself & like that her emphasis on the sanctity of life made her opppse that horribly dangerous assisted dying bill. Maurice Glasman has also spoken warmly of her support for the Jewish community which is positive.

However, in the eyes of fundamentalist Muslim voters, she may be seen as not much more conservative than Zarah Sultana is. I suspect pure prejudice against her being female may go a long way.

logiccalls · 09/11/2025 18:36

"This was your country, but it's our country now" "We're here to f white women and to f your country". These were words said in streets and said to grooming gang victims, but because they didn't fit into the Islington- correct version of the world, they were not heeded or believed.

Carla786 · 09/11/2025 18:57

Lalgarh · 23/10/2025 13:02

It's normally a given that abusers tend to target ppl in their own ethnicity (seems reasonable assumption BC that's who any person would have most day to day contact).

So the disparity in victim and offender origin is really marked. Were they also grooming girls from the black community? The riots in Lozells in 2005 centred around an allegation of rape by a black teenager against a Pakistani shop owner.

The key thing here, imo, is that racial animosity was a very important factor.

But I also believe that misogyny was equally important. We have credible allegations by Muslim women collected by organisations like the Muslim Women's Network. It is extremely difficult for Muslim women to report men within their community, due to widespread repression, so it's very hard to know the full scale.

I do NOT believe that victims of sexual abuse but not Pakistani Muslim grooming gangs should be included.

I DO believe that it is very wrong to ignore the Sikh and Muslim women also victimised by the gangs. There needs to be a laser focus on the racial & religious animosity/lack of respect for white girls. Ditto for Sikh girls. But also on the misogyny and silencing of abused Muslim girls. And the Labour MPs etc who ignored all this to curry favour with abusive men.

Class was also a big factor. The girls were seen as chavs who were asking for it, or had made 'lifestyle choices".

Carla786 · 09/11/2025 19:08

More info on targeting of Hindu girls

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=insightuk.org/britains-grooming-gangs-the-suffering-of-british-hindus-and-sikhs-and-challenging-political-correctness&ved=2ahUKEwjb-JL44OWQAxXqZEEAHUKhIH4QFnoECCMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw04wEGdSJdGbyMSOnq3SC3s

I'm studying Indian history right now and there is a tragically long history of sexual violence being used as a weapon by both sides on Muslim-Hindu and Muslim-Sikh conflict. The sectarianism, misogyny and biraderi (clan) systems of a these rural areas of Pakistan like Mirpur have led to targeting of white British girls on racial & religious grounds, and similar treatment of British Sikh and Hindu girls.

Muslim girls, meanwhile, are clearly not targeted because of their race or ethnicity but they aren't safe either from sexual abuse by these gangs. BBC investigative reporter Sue Lloyd-Roberts' interviewed Ann Cryer for her book The War on Women , and tied honour killing/forced marriage etc in Mirpur to the similar misogyny that motivated the grooming gangs.

https://www.google.com/url?opi=89978449&rct=j&sa=t&source=web&url=https%3A%2F%2Finsightuk.org%2Fbritains-grooming-gangs-the-suffering-of-british-hindus-and-sikhs-and-challenging-political-correctness&usg=AOvVaw04wEGdSJdGbyMSOnq3SC3s&ved=2ahUKEwjb-JL44OWQAxXqZEEAHUKhIH4QFnoECCMQAQ

Carla786 · 09/11/2025 19:41

I've seen a lot of men on Substack and X, and some women, framing this as a 'race war' scenario. Not only is this the last thing we need, it's a narrative that ignores the suffering of a lot of women who don't fit that narrative (notwithstanding that 'race war' ideology WAS a big motivator of the gangs).

Rakib Ehsan has done excellent work on ethnic minorities' political attitudes (see his book Beyond Grievance) and he draws attention to the factors silencing Muslim and Sikh victims here.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2025/01/07/the-forgotten-victims-of-britains-grooming-gangs/

The forgotten victims of Britain’s grooming gangs

Sikh and Muslim girls were also targeted by abusers – and then abandoned by the authorities.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2025/01/07/the-forgotten-victims-of-britains-grooming-gangs/

Carla786 · 09/11/2025 20:19

SionnachRuadh · 23/10/2025 14:04

Yeah, that comes from a lot of online right types who also think Sadiq Khan is an Islamist when he's basically a woke troll.

Sadiq of course is of Muhajir origin, and I bet he has some spicy opinions about Mirpuris.

Connor Tomlinson does this a lot with minority politicians. He also hallucinated that Shabana Mahmood is some kind of far leftist, when anyone in Labour will tell you she makes David Blunkett look like a hippie.

I feel for Shabana because she seems to me to have extremely sensible policies, strong will and integrity. (Hopefully this is true, it's my impression so far.)

She does definitely have to contend with crap from both sides : plenty of conservative Muslims no doubt think that she's a heretic and traitor for plenty of reasons. While some aspects of Reform (I know this is NOT all or most of Reform but a significant minority) write her off because her parents came here from Pakistan - see Facebook posts & comments like this one exemplify this kind of attitude.

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1CnjzDvmyg/