Non Binary Niece Syndrome

[UtopiaPlanitia]

I think this article provides a very interesting insight into some of the social and class-based reasons why a lot of women refuse to join the fight to protect women's rights from genderism.

https://peaked.substack.com/p/non-binary-niece-syndrome

Róisín also wrote one of my favourite articles relating to the class-based, institutional lack of understanding and support for the gender critical movement:

https://4w.pub/you-meet-more-perverts-when-poor/

It seems really shallow, but... thinking of my two old TW friends who might have influenced me - one is that incredibly rare thing, a TW who passes well (not perfectly, but you'd have to look closely) and is actually very feminine and rather beautiful... but doesn't dress like a hooker.

The other doesn't pass at all, but has the advantage of having been a rather short and slightly built gay man who can do feminine mannerisms well. And also doesn't dress like a hooker, but in age-appropriate female dress.

And both of them would say in conversation, yes, I'm trans, I was born a boy and hated my male body and I have to present this way to be comfortable.

I didn't have that initial clarifying experience of encountering some big burly 50 year old bloke in fishnets and a leather mini, insisting that he really is a woman while being the most stereotypical man ever.

There aren't many things as clarifying to the mind as a man in the grip of a fetish.

I think that Sandie Peggie and some, if not all, of the Darlington nurses are working class.

Gender ideology is a middle class construct discussed on social media in the main by middle class people on both sides, but the reality of gender identity politics is wielded heavily on working class women.

Maya lost her job as a result but she then founded Sex Matters. Allison Bailey had the resources to sue her chambers and her vet and to appeal her tribunal to the Appeal Court. I think Sandie might have thought twice about confronting Upton if she'd had a crystal ball and could have foreseen her suspension and the resulting publicity and exposure of her private conversations.

I think plenty working class women are gender critical but they risk their livelihoods by speaking up and have to keep their mouths shut and put up with it, or have a tonne of courage to follow through.

I doubt you'll find many working class women publicly expressing a view for either position that could lose them their job, but plenty of middle class women will back TWAW and similar luxury beliefs because they can afford to move jobs/change gyms/take action if they are confronted with the reality of a predatory man in the toilets.

seriously brilliant writing!

I know this is a selfish take (I’m so lucky to have a niece who wanted to be nonbinary but parents pretty much banned it until she grew out of it, plus my DDs are raging terfs), but my friendship circles have been decimated by this shit. So many female friends who I used to love and have so much fun with are now Stepford Moms or Stepford Allies. I haven’t had a relaxing female relationship since 2019. I can’t have more than half a glass of wine at a party any longer for fear I’ll say the thing that gets me sent to the social gulag.

"In hindsight, what did I expect. This was a fetishist at a feminist zine workshop, for fuck’s sake, and he had a harem of angels fluffing him up."

'Women who don't agree with me must be in a cult'…
'young females are just confronted by puberty & are suffering from a contagion'…

What an incredibly sexist take not unlike what misandrists say about feminism being popularised by women: 'They are all programmed robots don'tcha know'
or suffer from 'man envy'.

The parallels of believing women are non autonomous hapless victims to societal fads by patriarchal warriors & gender criticals is breathtaking. What's interesting is why the common ground? I suspect it's a particular consequence of those with conservative mindsets who can't deal with non conformists or out groups that need to blame all societal ills on….women.

'Sigh, feminised society's to blame…

I thoroughly agree with your description, it's very much in keeping with the arguments Róisín makes in her two articles and also in keeping with what I've encountered in real life.

Unless you have the resources and the contacts, it's very hard to stick up for yourself (especially if your trade union refuses to help).

Yes, as she notes, it often depends how you first encounter the ideology which then dictates your attitude. And who you encounter it through.

My first exposure to it was a couple of Facebook groups called 'things transactivists say'. Of course, TRAs managed to get both groups shut down pretty swiftly. But not before I, and many other women, had a chance to read them.

It was a baptism of fire that lasted about 30 seconds and produced a fully formed terf - utterly shocked, totally convinced, primed, cocked and fuming.

A sort of condensed version of operation let them speak.

There aren't many things as clarifying to the mind as a man in the grip of a fetish.

Ain't that the truth.

Looking forward to reading this thanks for posting it

It feels slightly odd to be thankful that my first exposure (almost literally) to this 15 years ago was the office perve turning up in a mini skirt and knee high boots and declaring he was now Britney. Equally fortunate was that the office matriarchs quickly put a stop to his loitering in the female toilets and insisted he used a single facility.

I lost a number of my London based friends when I recounted this to them. They all pitied poor hulking Britney who had to suffer the bigotry of working in a Northern mill town. The fact they'd thought he ought to be fired for sexism in his pre-Britney days was quickly forgotten, or worse, excused.

My concern from Roisin's excellent article is for the trans/non-binary girls who will find themselves stuck in a teenage-phase because it became the central point of their family's ally identity. How can you row back to being just plain-Jane when your Mum fell out with her oldest friend defending the fact you were James?

Some trans young people are middle, even upper middle class, others, children in 'the system' are steered by middle class social workers and therapists. They all share with the creepy older transmen a total disregard for cleaners, shop assistants and other workers who are expected to act as props and clear up after them.

Anyone who was on the internet between 2007-2016, especially on Tumblr or similar would have seen this hit teen girls like a train. Girls describing themselves as having ADHD, ASD, APD, ODD, MPD (with pages of character profiles describing all the alternate personalities in their "system".) The same girls posting pro-anorexia content and self-harm pics and calling themselves transmasc demiboys or neurosexual enbies or whatever micro-identity was making the rounds that week. It was and is an obvious pattern that you'd have to really bury your head in the sand not to notice.

It is a societal fad and women have disproportionately supported it. Those are the facts, which aren't sexist. You can give reasons or analysis for why this is the way it is that veer into sexism, but simply pointing out the obvious isn't that.

That's not how to do data, but thanks for your 'real world' anecdotal observations.

The point I keep coming back to is teenage girls identifying as non-binary or trans seems to be the latest way to avoid the expectations and behaviours from other people that arrive with visible female puberty.

Maybe it’s easier to support teenage girls on their attempt at an invisibility cloak and hope it works than to be bloody angry that teenage girls still need one.

Teenagers trying on different identities to figure out who they are, exploring various roles, interests, and beliefs through social groups, hobbies, and values isn't anything new & certainly was a thing long before the internet. This experimentation is a normal part of adolescence as they navigate physical and emotional changes and seek independence. This process helps them eventually develop a more stable sense of self.

Look for patriarchy every where & you will surely find it.

Ah well, that was a nice thread, while it lasted

I don’t need to look for patriarchy. Recognising patriarchy is always worthwhile.

I really doubt you go through life ignoring everything you see and hear until there exists some sort of study on it. Aside from being impossible, that would leave you exceptionally vulnerable.

Do you apply "how not to do data" to the "transgenderism" science too? It's almost impossible to conduct studies or collect data where there isn't even a coherent hypothesis, just a collection of vibes held together by linguistic farting.

I agree with this however.

But the way it has been co-opted and steered by ideas about gender identity coming from NGOs, transvestites, and sexologists has not been normal. The pathway into surgical and hormonal body modification upped the stakes, as did "cut off anyone who doesn't hold your beliefs", the irresponsible fearmongering about suicide and genocide, and the law/policy around child safeguarding or the impact on treatment for underlying issues that fuel young people's escape into these identities. I have never seen anything like this in my lifetime, that's for sure.

"I really doubt you go through life ignoring everything you see and hear until there exists some sort of study on it. Aside from being impossible, that would leave you exceptionally vulnerable."

False equivalence. You are making a sweeping generalisation about an entire group off internet vibes not an educated guess on whether you're personally hungry, thirsty or at risk of abuse.

"Do you apply "how not to do data" to the "transgenderism" science too?"

Seriously? There's a reason why there's a global medical expert consensus based on research & clinical experience & its not 'vibes'….

I get the impression that Howse frequents a 'how to argue on the internet' site somewhere, and we get treated to random bon mots as and when.

They often make Howse sound like a dimwit encountering things for the first time that most of us have been hearing (and sometimes using) since our early teens.

The difference is that adults used to recognise that trying on these different identities was just a phase, and that they could change from day to day. Also that teen behaviours were socially contagious and sometimes harmful (such as eating disorders and cutting).

Having adults endorse and even encourage these cross-sex or non-binary identities is where this really differs from previous teen fads. This has the opposite effect from helping them develop a more stable sense of self by locking them into their teenage identity. They need to be able to cast their experimental identities aside easily when they change their minds, with just an indulgent eye roll from their parents.

I too was skeptical about climate science 'cause its 'inconvenient' & seems over the top scare mongering' as did COVID but ultimately I'm not a climatologist or an epidemiologist. So as comfortable as it is to believe the woke mind virus has infected thousands of experts globally my higher self knows better.

I don't think people realise what principles they are really sacrificing in their efforts to go by gut 'knowledge'. This isn't just about whether men can be women you know but whether we as a race dangerously go down the road of evidence & expertise being irrelevant.

How do you know most don't go further than play dress up? By what data?

Exactly

I also can't believe I had never thought about the definition or etymology of "travesty"... "a false, absurd or distorted representation of something."

Thanks to her article where she writes about "travesti" I have new appreciation for these words and concepts. I hope she writes more.

It's also very funny to suggest that people who might be labelled as having gender critical views (really can't get on board with the noun use of "gender criticals") are more conservatively minded as a group than others. From discussions here (actual discussion, not frothing or name calling or any of the other tactics like ad hominem attacks or straw man arguments) it seems a very significant number of people who have concerns about replacing the concept with sex with the concept of gender are exactly the opposite: women with a history of fighting against conservative norms restricting them.

And I don't remember any of my friends being scared to voice opinions on any of the teenage experimentation that happened when we were young, unlike the teenage daughter of a friend now who absolutely cannot freely talk about the fact that male and female are separate categories which people can't swap into or out of. I also don't remember teachers promoting any particular subculture over another or starting clubs for them.

Difference is, not all of that leads to children being sterilised and permanently damaged...