Why doesn't the trans community want 3rd (and 4th?) spaces?

[JamieCannister]

... and are any of the reasons they give (or don't give) reasonable?

By "trans community" I mean trans activists / trans people who are activists, as a braod group. Obiously I do not mean every single person who identifies as trans.

(1) IMHO it seems to me clear that "validation" is a big reason. I am not sure how often this is said, but trans people, especially TIMs seem to want women's spaces for validation, therefore they don't want 3rd spaces.

(2) Predation / feelings of power. Never said, but it is clear that some people in the TQ+ community (and any community) have genuinely nefarious reasons for wanting women's spaces not 3rd spaces. In theory this could be a tiny number, in practice we simply do not know, nor is it women's job to have to take on the (at best) mental load of wondering which ones might be dodgy.

(3) Using 3rd spaces is "outing". For this to be valid it would require passing in the first place. It also suggests that TIMs believe that the right of a trans'woman' to be perceived as what he is not is greater than the rights of women to single sex spaces. I don't think that the right to change someone else's perception of you (not least from perceiving truth to perceiving a lie) is a right that I support.

(4) Practical reasons. Accepting 3rd spaces means accepting they have no rights to be in opposite sex spaces. They know that if it comes to it, most of the time, 3rd spaces simple cannot be practically provided so 3rd spaces in effect means TIMs in the disabled or the men's.

(5) They are not stupid. They know exactly how 3rd spaces would play out. Women and TIFs would be in the women's. Men would be in the men's. TIMs would be alone or in tiny groups in the 3rd spaces, perhaps occasionally accompanied by a hand-maiden friend of theirs.

(6) It's harder to claim victimhood in 3rd spaces. If they can't get what they want (access to women), then they're better off in the men's (where they can whine) or the disabled (where they can whine and pretend they care about disabled spaces being used by people who are not disabled, but claim that they have to do it so it's women's fault the disabled is used by non-disabled) than they are in 3rd spaces where the only whine they can possibly have is "but we want to get changed with the women" which is less of a sympathetic demand than some of their others.

(7) Chaos. The whole movement (TQ+, queer theory) is about causing chaos and destroying normal, nice, civilized society and family life. 3rd spaces end a conflict, and they don't want to end conflict. In contrast being allowed into women's spaces for good is an acceptable solution because whilst it ends conflict on paper in practice it doesn't - conflict will continue and they know it and want it.

Third spaces do no solve the "problem" (men wanting to be in spaces with women for a variety of reasons), and, if anything, they would demonstrate the problem as well (women don't want to enter spaces with men) thus undermining the entire incoherent men's rights movement further.

What am I missing? Are there other reasons?

I'm not talking about luxury toilets, I'm talking about one or two toilets that are like accessible toilets only smaller.

Realistically I think we have gone too far down this road to now say, "trans people, use the toilets for your own sex, we don't care how uncomfortable that makes you."

Additional spaces are the only chance we have of getting men out of women's spaces.

If enough such spaces exist, we can say, "trans people, we have created these spaces for you, please use them."

If those spaces are not created, I'm afraid the pendulum will swing back to, "they just want to pee, women be kind!"

Theyve told us not being able to use the womens toilet and changing room is othering, outing, exactly like racial segregation.

Ignoring this and telling them to use single occupancy spaces doesnt solve the problem. Its not that there isnt single occupancy spaces already, or that they dont want to use the men space, its that they want to use the womens.

The only way to solve this is to stop with the idea that they are not men. There really isnt a separate group of mem who arent man enough for the gents, but not woman enough for the ladies. They can scatch their balls in the gents along with every other man.

I remember years ago, when Stonewall were just starting to steer the narrative, hearing about a case where a man claimed to be a woman and he was allowed to use the women's toilets at work. I think there was some inappropriate behaviour - wanting to talk about/share san-pro etc., so the women gradually started using alternative facilities until he was the only one using the women's. He then went to his employer and wanted the women to be forced back into using the women's toilets with him.

I used to frequent a pub that had three toilets- mens, women's and gender neutral.

Worked quite well. I don't like forced gender neutral though- there should be men's and women's too.

I'd imagine some trans people don't like them because they think they are women because they said so- so can use any facility for women. Other trans people would probably happily use a gender neutral space.

I'd imagine some trans people don't like them because they think they are women because they said so- so can use any facility for women. Other trans people would probably happily use a gender neutral space.

To me that's an argument in favour of having them.

I'm happy for society to do something small to accommodate the latter group, whilst telling the former group to get stuffed.

Because they want access to naked women and girls. There is no mystery here

They want access to women and girls. Women and girls aren't in these spaces so they don't want to use them.

As long as they aren't getting their cocks out while fixing the plumbing/mopping the floor/saving a life...
D'ya see the difference?

They've also got a paid job to do and then they're out of there (and if they're not, women can complain about them - as the law stands).

They're not in there because they feel entitled to be in the space!

I'm amazed that anyone still wheels out the "what about male cleaners" argument. It just makes them look really, really, really stupid.

And if a woman chooses not to use the space while the man is working in it, everyone thinks that's totally understandable and no one castigates her for it or reports her to her employer or posts about it on their Bluesky.

And unlike many prominent TRA TW, a cleaner taking a selfie of himself in the ladies toilet and posting it on x isn't a thing. Because he's just doing his job, it's not sone sort of trophy to prove he was able to trample on women's boundaries.

Yes, and it's fairly normal practice to put a notice outside actually warning that there are male staff at work, so that women know and can avoid them if they wish. Not a notice saying there are male staff at work and you will effing well carry on and use the facility while they are there or be labelled a Phobe and an Ist.

And we all know it's not just selfies, there are many videos of transwomen wanking in the ladies toilets.

Without the women in the space it's just a room - which will provide no jizz fantasy at all.

I do hope the "just want to live their lives in peace" crew are not using disabled toilets. They are not for you.

I'm all for 'gender' neutral toilets as an additional luxury (belief) option. But no man should be using a womens single sex space, I don't care how sincerely he wants to pretend otherwise.

Well exactly. Its on a par with "you have gender neutral toilets in your home" for absolute stupidity.

I'd imagine some trans people don't like them because they think they are women because they said so- so can use any facility for women.

I suspect some trans women don’t like the women’s/men’s/gender neutral set up because they know women can avoid being in their company by going into the women’s only space from which they are - or at least should be - excluded. It gives women an escape and that will never do.

When transwomen say they don't want to use gender neutral toilets, this is what we throw back at them. You use a gender neutral toilet at home so you can use one when out and about

I think the one you’re missing is “control”. It is quite clear that some of these men get enormous enjoyment from upsetting women and making them submit.

I was in a venue recently that I thought covered all the options exceptionally well. The venue was a very inclusive space and it was a pleasant surprise that women had been factored into this. There were loos marked urinals, cubicles, disabled, plus a large women's toilet with several cubicles. Still on the walls of the women's toilet someone had felt the need to let women know that 'a trans person has peed here'.
You couldn't get a better illustration that it doesn't matter how accommodating people/organisations/venues are, it will never be enough.

But why should transwomen be accepted as fully female? Surely if that were the case they could not be trans. What would they be transing from if they've always been women?
I find it hard to believe that these (mainly) middle class men are being oppressed -- what with having been brought up with male privilege and all - claiming this puts us on an entirely false oppressed/oppressor footing at a time when women are still firmly second class in terms of pay, power and influence in our society.
So if (as I say) the MC men who consider themselves to be women are indeed being oppressed -- who the fuck is oppressing them? It sure as shit ain't us gals.

There is literally no reason at all why they should be accepted as something they are not.

All the reasons boil down to "because it's what they want".

Don’t you find it interesting that 99% of humans, both male and female, do not walk around in their lives expecting their sex to be private? The only people who want to hide their sex are trans people. When have humans ever expected their sex to be hidden other than the rare ones who deliberately want to hide it?

That said, I would expect the TIM handmaidens would most likely join their trans spouses/friends/family members in using gender neutral or mixed spaces so those spaces wouldn’t be trans only or “outing”. I also love irony of the trans community stealing the term outing from the LGB. Totally two different definitions of the term. I expect the LGB would want to know the true sex of the person they are dating rather than their gender identity so the trans use of the term directly conflicts with the needs of the LGB.