What is "trans" and why does it justify undoing sex in law, society, culture and history?

[FlirtsWithRhinos]

In the Trolls thread @Tandora and I discovered that in a recent thread she had thought she was very clear about what "trans" is while I thought she was simply describing symptoms that could have many causes and did not justify why these symptoms should be treated as actual material facts by others.

• Trolls thread with our interaction on this page: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5420701-a-little-piece-of-insight?page=15&reply=147554941

• my question on the earlier thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5420701-a-little-piece-of-insight?page=15&reply=147554941

Clearly I missed something in that earlier thread but I can't go back because it has reached its post limit, so rather than derail the trolls thread, I am restating my question here.

Looking forward to @Tandora engaging with my questions to help me understand what I missed about her position in the original thread.

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Tandora · 02/10/2025 21:28
Right- this is your question. which is why im trying to explain what being trans is. It's entirely relevant, the reason people can't comprehend the issue is that they simply can't comprehend what it is to be trans.
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FlirtsWithRhinos · 02/10/2025 23:13
But Tandora you haven't explained what being trans is. All you've done is played the old TRA game of "Not that" when anyone else tries suggest an definition, any definition at all, that appears to fit the random claims you are making that feeling very wrong in the sex you actually are is somehow interchangeable with being the sex you are not, or that a characteristic of the mind somehow overrides the reality and consequences of differences of the body for both the trans person and for others.

You have made all sort of hand wringing emotional claims on behalf of trans people, and roundly insulted everyone who doesn't accept your argument of "they just are, alright" as closed minded and uneducated (which frankly would be hilarious to anyone who'd ever met me), and yet never once explained exactly why this thing makes the differences of sex and the social consequences of those differences, facts that are entirely and unproblematically accepted as real in all other circumstances, suddenly inconsequential and irrelevant in the face of a trans person's mental self image.

So I'll ask you again.

What is "being trans" Tandora?
Is it being one sex but with a deep and aching wish you were the other sex, maybe like a blind person has a deep and aching wish to see, or a lonely little girl has a deep and aching wish that she had been born as one of the popular kids instead?

Or is it actually being, in an innate mental way, in ways we don't yet understand, the other sex, implying that sex is not in fact a descriptor of the body but of the mind?

Because take away the emotional manipulation and neither definition actually justifies the demands being made of women in its name.

Neither definition changes the fact that people with female bodies do exist and do face social and physical consequences because of those bodies, and neither a man's deep feeling that he should have had a female body, nor a man's deep feeling that women don't need to have a female body, changes the embodied experiences and needs and self knowledge of the people who actually have a female body one iota.

Because these are things that are entirely to do with the experiences of women, and so no experience or feeling, no matter how genuine, of a man is relevant to them.

And regardless of which definition you go for, in fact regardless of any definition you go for that places more weight on a man's idea of himself as a woman than the embodied fact of female existence, outside his own mind he is simply not relevant to who women in the original female sense are and what women in the original female sense need at all.

No definition of woman that is stretched to include male people is more relevant to the needs and experiences and reality of female people than the simple old fashioned sex based definition and there is sinply no way round that.
face of a trans person's mental self image.

So I'll ask you again.

What is "being trans" Tandora?

Is it being one sex but with a deep and aching wish you were the other sex, maybe like a blind person has a deep and aching wish to see, or a lonely little girl has a deep and aching wish that she had been born as one of the popular kids instead?

Or is it actually being, in an innate mental way, in ways we don't yet understand, the other sex, implying that sex is not in fact a descriptor of the body but of the mind?

Because take away the emotional manipulation and neither definition actually justifies the demands being made of women in its name.

Neither definition changes the fact that people with female bodies do exist and do face social and physical consequences because of those bodies, and neither a man's deep feeling that he should have had a female body, nor a man's deep feeling that women don't need to have a female body, changes the embodied experiences and needs and self knowledge of the people who actually have a female body one iota.

Because these are things that are entirely to do with the experiences of women, and so no experience or feeling, no matter how genuine, of a man is relevant to them.

And regardless of which definition you go for, in fact regardless of any definition you go for that places more weight on a man's idea of himself as a woman than the embodied fact of female existence, outside his own mind he is simply not relevant to who women in the original female sense are and what women in the original female sense need at all.

No definition of woman that is stretched to include male people is more relevant to the needs and experiences and reality of female people than the simple old fashioned sex based definition and there is sinply no way round that.

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@Tandora I don't have much free time this afternoon. Please don't take slow replies as bad faith and be assured I will be coming back to this thread when I have to engage properly as I really appreciate you wanting to explain this to me.

People on the autistic spectrum often find ways to cope in a society that doesn't always understand them. Coping strategies tend to work most effectively when one tries to blend in with societal expectations to a sufficient extent that one is not constantly drawing attention to oneself. This does not mean, for example, that I have to love parties, or find smalltalk easy, or behave exactly like everyone else. But there are useful rules of thumb; there are things that seem to come naturally to most people but autistic people may have to learn laboriously.

This may not be entirely fair, but it enables us to function in a society with laws and with unwritten rules, with introverted and extroverted members. It also helps if optimists learn not to push their optimism on pessimists, and vice versa.

When it comes to what society expects of men and women, we can also choose in what ways we will fit in. This is "gender conformity or nonconformity".

@Tandora What I don't understand is how it can be helpful to anyone to be so nonconformist as to try to fit the other sex's conformity - especially when your body denies that at every turn. If I do not conform to societal expectations for my sex (male), how do I think I can conform to societal expectations for the other sex? And even if I could do this to my own satisfaction, what makes me think that I can convince anyone else, especially when the gender stereotypes are not at all well defined? Is it not much more sensible to see myself as a nonconforming man, or more likely a partially conforming man, than as a woman in my recognisably male body? And finally, why should anyone else be required to see me as I see myself?

@Tandora how do Pip Bunce Eddie/Susie fit in to your vision of what trans is? Are they not trans or if they are trans how come this crippling can't be ignored self knowledge that they are the opposite sex switches on and off?

@Tandora why does the distress of the trans people trump my distress?

” (e.g. being treated as per your birth sex wherever men and women, boys and girls are treated differently) can cause profound and debilitating psychological distress. This distress is so pervasive and intense that it can result in clinical depression, anxiety, disruptive mood dysregulation disorder, self-harm, suicidality and even psychosis.”

I read that as trans people are profoundly impacted by being perceived and treated as their biological sex. Which is incredibly difficult and impossible to avoid because how someone identifies does not alter reality nor does it create an obligation to engage in someone else’s identify belief.

Im having difficulty believing the implications of such a serious condition - if their inner sex isnt acknowledged it can cause psychosis, can be cured by entering women changing rooms.

If a man can see he has a penis, knows that men have penises, yet believes he is a woman, thats going to cause continuous distress. And not just their penis, their whole body will show signs of being male all of the time. How would wearing womens clothes and joining a women sports team help in any meaningful way?

Given they will always see signs of their male body, and that causes profound distress, wouldnt the cure be altering the mind to match their body? That way they would reduce the risk of suicide and psychosis.

Thats why i believe they are working backwards, and changing the reasons/implications for not getting what they want.

These men want to be in womens spaces, therefore use any means they have to make it happen. The law, aggressively using the space, manipulation and guilt. And saying society not acknowledging them as female will lead to suicide is manipulation.

That's a great point

Interestingly the definition of being trans according to Tanaka focused on how one is perceived and treated being the trigger for distress. Not so much about how they perceive themselves. Which makes life very difficult because most people are very good at perceiving whether an adult is male or female. A still image carefully shot of a single someone with extensive facial feminisation surgery might be tricky, but in person it’s typically 95% plus accuracy.

Surely if distress is triggered by being perceived and treated as your biological sex actively putting yourself in the opposite sexes single sex spaces is increasing the potential for distress?

The absolutely not an equivalence autistic people try to reduce their exposure to environments which trigger sensory overload and use aids to help with the unavoidable.

The only reason that men started this 'using womens spaces' lark is because doctors who were signing off on removing the penises of men with extreme mental distress wouldn't do so unless the men could prove that they could enter women's toilets without women making a fuss. It's where the 'living as a woman' nonsense came from. It is all made up bullshit. It isn't 'natural' in any way.

To be a transwoman is to be born with observably male physical characteristics (e.g. penis, testes, sometimes chromosomes will be observed in utero through prenatal testing but not always), but to recognise/ understand self as being female.

If this is the crux, then it's just a delusion.

It's being born with a penis and testes, but recognising yourself as being born with a vagina and a uterus?

It's nonsensical. And absolutely not to be accommodated. Why would you? You're setting the person up for a lifetime of frustration and pain. No one can expect to have their delusion accommodated by everyone they meet.

Accepting trans people and including them society is not incompatible with preserving the dignity, privacy and safety of women and girls. The idea that there is a conflict has been spread through moral panic which has been used to roll back progress towards recognition and inclusion of trans people in society

Well that idea might carry more weight if the fact that non compliance didn't result in a barrage of death and rape threats and being fired, attacked and arrested. Ffs

Tandora, you appear to be operating on the basis of a singular trans person that you know, and wondering why everyone can't bend over backwards to accommodate them.

They are not representative, and that is not the real world.

The term ‘recognise’ refers to perceiving something and matching it to a stored memory. The suggestion that a male with a trans identity matches their self perception to that of a female indicates that (1) they are using incorrect criteria for identifying females (2) they are misperceiving themselves.

Trans people need to know their sex in order to know they are trans, so they need to recognise which sex they are. Those who experience gender distress, the distress comes from this recognition.

Nearly all of the gender distressed children and young people who I work with carry value laden ideas of what is perceived when someone perceives a male or female, going way beyond perceiving someone who has the body type designed to produce large or small gametes. Their desire to be perceived as a male or female is significantly tethered to attributions they hold regarding being and be seen as possessing these wider attributes.

Accepting a transwoman and including them in society would not be incompatible with preserving the dignity, privacy and safety of women and girls if there were acceptance that transwomen are male and their inclusion in single sex provision renders it mixed sex.

This recognition allows for proper, transparent and open debate about dignity, privacy and safety for all. Those seeking trans inclusion through having provision that includes some, but not all, people from both sexes can make their case. Those who want to have single sex provision can make their case. The likely outcome would be provision of single sex and gender neutral provision.

The lack of progress towards trans acceptance in society relates to what people are being asked to accept. I think the majority are accepting of gender non conformity within the same parameters of gender conformity (e.g. not hyper sexualised or accompanied by antisocial behaviours) and want gender non conforming people to have the same human rights as everyone (good education, employment, housing, access to health care, safety etc.). What they don’t want to have to accept is having to pretend that a male is a female when both the male and they know this is not the case. This is excruciatingly uncomfortable for some, not all, people and it is an unreasonable expectation - akin to it being excruciatingly uncomfortable for someone with a trans identity to conform to the gendered expectations society imposes on people of their sex.

You misunderstand. not saying that all people who are trans have other specific types of neurodivergence or the reverse. I'm saying that being trans itself is a typology of neurodivergence. Theres also a high concurrence with other types of neurodivergence as you note.

(1) they are using incorrect criteria for identifying females (2) they are misperceiving themselves.

you are making completely unsupported assumptions about the cognitive pathway.

Trans people need to know their sex in order to know they are trans.they need to recognise which sex they are. Those who experience gender distress, the distress comes from this recognition.

No- they need to know what sex other people attribute to them. That's what causes the distress.

@Tandora good morning so as you seem to have missed it yesterday how does Eddie/Susie Izzard fit into your definition of trans?
His girl mode/ boy mode pattern really don't seem to fit your description. So is probably the countries most famous trans person not actually trans? Eddie does like to use the ladies so either Eddie is a different version of trans to your definition or Eddie is an example of a person who is not trans but still insists on use of wrong sex spaces?

But what about pips Bunce who is sometimes trans but sometimes not. It is very sad that trans people’s whole happiness relies on external sources. Maybe intensive therapy will allow them to boost their self worth and accept themselves as they are without relying on external validation.

No- they need to know what sex other people attribute to them. That's what causes the distress.

If there was nobody else around attributing 'sex' to people they would still be the same sex that they are. And if they have issues with people knowing which sex they are, then they need some mental health support to accept that reality exists.

To be a transwoman is to be born with observably male physical characteristics (e.g. penis, testes, sometimes chromosomes will be observed in utero through prenatal testing but not always), but to recognise/ understand self as being female.

This is s lot of words to say there is body sex and brain sex.

If you are trans, attempting to suppress, deny your cognitive experience of sex, including through being forced to live in your natal sex role, (e.g. being treated as per your birth sex wherever men and women, boys and girls are treated differently) can cause profound and debilitating psychological distress.

But men seem to live quite happily in their 'natal sex roles' for years, only coming out in middle age. Even then, im not sure what female sex role the likes of eddie izzard are living now? What is izzard doing now that he could only do as a woman?

Are using women toilets, changing rooms and toilets female roles?

Accepting trans people and including them society is not incompatible with preserving the dignity, privacy and safety of women and girls.

This comment glosses over what is expected of women and girls to accept trans people. It makes it sould like tiny, insignificant allowances.

But what you are not saying is you expect everyone to act in a prescribed way to keep men happy. Including 10 year old girls inpublic toilets and changing rooms.

You cant see the dangers in this? To never question, double take, move away, or report men in womens toilets, else we cause then psychological harm?

The lack of progress towards trans acceptance in society relates to what people are being asked to accept. I think the majority are accepting of gender non conformity within the same parameters of gender conformity (e.g. not hyper sexualised or accompanied by antisocial behaviours) and want gender non conforming people to have the same human rights as everyone (good education, employment, housing, access to health care, safety etc.). What they don’t want to have to accept is having to pretend that a male is a female when both the male and they know this is not the case. This is excruciatingly uncomfortable for some, not all, people and it is an unreasonable expectation - akin to it being excruciatingly uncomfortable for someone with a trans identity to conform to the gendered expectations society imposes on people of their sex.

this. I believe trans ppl should have the same rights as other people which in the UK they do. They can't have more rights specifically, they can't also have woman's rights. I cannot, and will not, lie that the 6ft bloke in a dress with long hair is a woman the same as me. I cannot for the life of me see how it is anyway reasonable to expect the entire of society to lie about this.

For Pips Bunce the whole world has to shift reality to accommodate him on whichever days he decides.

For Eddie Izzard the whole world has to shift reality to accommodate him in whichever role he is currently auditioning for or which film or play he is appearing in.

And the people that have to shift their reality most, are the very real females that are disadvantaged by their delusions. All the women have to accept Pips in their toilets as and when he wants or they risk losing their jobs. All the women queuing at St Pancras have to accept Eddie in their toilets or risk possibly arrest by the British Transport Police.

Brilliant logic.

It’s like the whole tree in a forest thing I think. If everyone wore e g grey jumpsuits and had the same hairstyles, how would transpire know they were trans? Unless you rely on gendered outdated stereotypes, there is no way anyone can “feel like” the other sex. .

If well-being requires other people to appear to change their perception of reality, that goes well beyond the accommodation offered to other protected characteristics and becomes some kind of Truman show like performance.

It's not a realistic expectation.

@Tandora you also seen to have missed this one yesterday.
A matter of a few months ago you told us transness was a DSD. You claimed there was scientific evidence to support this now you are saying it's a type of neuro diversity. I would love you see the ground breaking evidence that has lead to your change of position on what trans is.

Please post links and I will do my best to comprehend because without any of the 'proof' you keep insisting is available I will have to assume that you are not sharing 'facts' with us, just your unevidenced opinions which are so unscientific you have changed them in the space of a few months.

What this linked study suggests is that the criteria used to assess infants does not appear to be an accurate and stable measure and thus some who were diagnosed under the age of 4

@CautiousLurker01 children who are diagnosed after 4 may not meet display clinical significant symptoms at a later age. We are talking about complex neurological developmental conditions that related to the profoundly complex adaptive systems of the brain. Brains are plastic, humans make developmental changes. The fact that children may no longer meet diagnostic criteria may not mean that those children were "never autistic" it may be that they have ways other ways of managing or compensating for their differences. It may also be that they were misdiagnosed, etc.

The point is that there are a range of complex reasons why clinically significant symptoms in some individuals may not persist, this does not draw into question the reality or stability of the underlying condition for others.

People constantly use the fact that some people de-transition, or 'grow out' of their gender dysphoria in order to debunk what they call 'trans ideology', but one doesn't logically from the other - the same could be said for 'autism ideology'. We need to learn more about detransition certainly, but we cannot use it as a distraction/ deflection from the huge numbers of trans people for whom being trans is persistent and permanent.

Yes and I am saying you are WRONG. Being transgender is NOT a a neurodevelopment disorder or difference. There is NO evidence, just a desire to couch it in those terms to justify a belief system.

I worked with people from Tavistock in treating my child, both those who defected but also met those who remained until it was disbanded. Not one of them - psychiatrists, psychologists, researchers with decades of experience and a body of post doctoral papers behind them - have found ANY neurological explanation. It is purely a mental belief, a symptom of psychological or psychiatric distress. I studied neuroscience myself as part of my psychology degree. Do you not think that those of us parenting our children wouldn’t have welcomed the knowledge that it was? Because then there might actually have been a ‘cure’ a clinical/medical route to ‘fixing’ it?

But there isn’t. There is only patience, therapy and a long term approach to supporting young people into finding a way to integrate their sense of self with the material reality of their actual sexed body.

I do appreciate that you mean well. But you are simply uniformed.