What is "trans" and why does it justify undoing sex in law, society, culture and history?

[FlirtsWithRhinos]

In the Trolls thread @Tandora and I discovered that in a recent thread she had thought she was very clear about what "trans" is while I thought she was simply describing symptoms that could have many causes and did not justify why these symptoms should be treated as actual material facts by others.

• Trolls thread with our interaction on this page: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5420701-a-little-piece-of-insight?page=15&reply=147554941

• my question on the earlier thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5420701-a-little-piece-of-insight?page=15&reply=147554941

Clearly I missed something in that earlier thread but I can't go back because it has reached its post limit, so rather than derail the trolls thread, I am restating my question here.

Looking forward to @Tandora engaging with my questions to help me understand what I missed about her position in the original thread.

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Tandora · 02/10/2025 21:28
Right- this is your question. which is why im trying to explain what being trans is. It's entirely relevant, the reason people can't comprehend the issue is that they simply can't comprehend what it is to be trans.
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FlirtsWithRhinos · 02/10/2025 23:13
But Tandora you haven't explained what being trans is. All you've done is played the old TRA game of "Not that" when anyone else tries suggest an definition, any definition at all, that appears to fit the random claims you are making that feeling very wrong in the sex you actually are is somehow interchangeable with being the sex you are not, or that a characteristic of the mind somehow overrides the reality and consequences of differences of the body for both the trans person and for others.

You have made all sort of hand wringing emotional claims on behalf of trans people, and roundly insulted everyone who doesn't accept your argument of "they just are, alright" as closed minded and uneducated (which frankly would be hilarious to anyone who'd ever met me), and yet never once explained exactly why this thing makes the differences of sex and the social consequences of those differences, facts that are entirely and unproblematically accepted as real in all other circumstances, suddenly inconsequential and irrelevant in the face of a trans person's mental self image.

So I'll ask you again.

What is "being trans" Tandora?
Is it being one sex but with a deep and aching wish you were the other sex, maybe like a blind person has a deep and aching wish to see, or a lonely little girl has a deep and aching wish that she had been born as one of the popular kids instead?

Or is it actually being, in an innate mental way, in ways we don't yet understand, the other sex, implying that sex is not in fact a descriptor of the body but of the mind?

Because take away the emotional manipulation and neither definition actually justifies the demands being made of women in its name.

Neither definition changes the fact that people with female bodies do exist and do face social and physical consequences because of those bodies, and neither a man's deep feeling that he should have had a female body, nor a man's deep feeling that women don't need to have a female body, changes the embodied experiences and needs and self knowledge of the people who actually have a female body one iota.

Because these are things that are entirely to do with the experiences of women, and so no experience or feeling, no matter how genuine, of a man is relevant to them.

And regardless of which definition you go for, in fact regardless of any definition you go for that places more weight on a man's idea of himself as a woman than the embodied fact of female existence, outside his own mind he is simply not relevant to who women in the original female sense are and what women in the original female sense need at all.

No definition of woman that is stretched to include male people is more relevant to the needs and experiences and reality of female people than the simple old fashioned sex based definition and there is sinply no way round that.
face of a trans person's mental self image.

So I'll ask you again.

What is "being trans" Tandora?

Is it being one sex but with a deep and aching wish you were the other sex, maybe like a blind person has a deep and aching wish to see, or a lonely little girl has a deep and aching wish that she had been born as one of the popular kids instead?

Or is it actually being, in an innate mental way, in ways we don't yet understand, the other sex, implying that sex is not in fact a descriptor of the body but of the mind?

Because take away the emotional manipulation and neither definition actually justifies the demands being made of women in its name.

Neither definition changes the fact that people with female bodies do exist and do face social and physical consequences because of those bodies, and neither a man's deep feeling that he should have had a female body, nor a man's deep feeling that women don't need to have a female body, changes the embodied experiences and needs and self knowledge of the people who actually have a female body one iota.

Because these are things that are entirely to do with the experiences of women, and so no experience or feeling, no matter how genuine, of a man is relevant to them.

And regardless of which definition you go for, in fact regardless of any definition you go for that places more weight on a man's idea of himself as a woman than the embodied fact of female existence, outside his own mind he is simply not relevant to who women in the original female sense are and what women in the original female sense need at all.

No definition of woman that is stretched to include male people is more relevant to the needs and experiences and reality of female people than the simple old fashioned sex based definition and there is sinply no way round that.

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@Tandora I don't have much free time this afternoon. Please don't take slow replies as bad faith and be assured I will be coming back to this thread when I have to engage properly as I really appreciate you wanting to explain this to me.

ETA: when I wrote this reply the post I quote consisted only of the first paragraph. The further content was added after so is irrelevant to my response.

Probably because you are making sweeping statements about the character, motivations and integrity of the women who post on FWR. People tend not to let such baseless accusations stand.

I'm afraid I do tend to see you as one of a handful of posters that pop up on occasional "What's the most thing about MN?" type threads to slap each other on the back for saying how awful FWR is and how they were bullied off the board, to the degree that they spend far more time talking about FWR than contributing to it.

But I acknowledge that's probably very unfair of me.

It would be great to chnge that and know what your actual thoughts are. Do you have a opinion on the thread topic?

What do you think "trans" is?

Do you think it justifies undoing sex in law, society, culture and history?

How would you accomodate trans women?

Unfair? Pretty fucking accurate Flirts!

Did the Scottish government present these decades of scientific research explaining transness to the Supreme Court? If not, why not?

Visual agnosia (the condition behind the title of the book) occurs as the result of brain damage. There’s nothing neurodevelopmental about that, so it’s not in any way comparable. That said, I’m not aware of any research showing that being trans is the result of neurodevelopmental differences, either?

That would mean outing tandora.

Two things can never be disclosed, tandoras research and a universal definition of transgender.

It is. I feel very personally attacked.

There are a lot of diseases that are partially treatable with drugs and various forms of talking therapies that have a mixed genetic and environmental basis, for example anxiety.
Gene discovery and biological insights into anxiety disorders from a large-scale multi-ancestry genome-wide association study | Nature Genetics

I think very few people on this platform would claim that gender dysphoria is totally non existent - the was majority thinks that it exists and it can be crippling at times. But the majority also thinks it is, in some cases, transient; in some cases, caused or exacerbated by other issues (e.g. autism, sexual trauma).
Many people question the notion that total affirmation has already been proven beyond doubts to be the only treatment option.

I know my ideas are falsifiable: if in the future they present me a clear diagnostic tool that measures true "transness", AND that, associated to true "transness", there is a reduction of male violent behaviours to levels identical to females, that will be the point when society should rediscuss whether to open single sex spaces to some male people with a demonstrable, measurable female identity. Not now.

Yes. If there was conclusive evidence, there would be a test used for diagnosis that would be reliable.

There isn’t. There is no mention of this being anything but a theory, yet it is being described here with a great more strength than a theory.

Exactly. Because it is the women who are the goal. Not the space.

I still don't think women's spaces should be accessible. The men in question might be harmless, but to the women in question, that won't matter.

I know lots of harmless men, but they're still men. With absolutely zero experience of being women.

I don't want to be managing my biological functions in front of them.

Plus, for a lot of women, there mere fact it's a man is the issue Irrespective of how harmless, nice, and what mental state they have.

I’ve said it before and I’m sure I’ll say it again, I strongly suspect that Tandora has skin in the game.
Not wholeheartedly supporting trans ideology would mean confronting some devastating home truths. Which is why I believe it’s no longer worth my time discussing this with her anymore.
Most people can see that none of it makes any sense. No matter how many times she says we don’t understand/are bigots etc, she will never actually have a coherent argument for males in female spaces.

I’ve been accused of using my rape and sexual assault to justify transphobia. I have been accused of being transphobic. I want WSSS that’s it. I don’t care - in the genuine sense if it is none of my business - how anyone else feels inside their head but I do not want a male bodied person in WSSS.

Why is that transphobic?

Trans men - given that they are women - I have no wish to exclude.

so how is it transphobic ?

And how have I used my rape and sexual assault to justify transphobia?

I’ve said. I used to be it doesn’t matter be nice be kind - but now, I had to go home and I had a hours and hours meltdown sobbing curled up on the floor unable to speak or anything because I was behind a door and there was a man I didn’t know on the other side who was just waiting for the disabled loo.

I can’t understand why my trauma is worth so much less than a trans persons trauma.

And to accuse me of using it as an excuse (for transphobia) is just beyond me. I would sell
my soul of I thought I had one to have my normal life back. I don’t want to be talking to my boss about what occu health can do or security about how they can protect me and moving offices so I’m in an access controlled building.

I want to be able to go out and not be scared there will be a man in my counselling group. Or doing an operation on me. The thought that a male doctor might’ve been able to touch me when I was under for my cancer op is terrifying.

And I’ve had to ask for reassurance from the team now because of the contention that Dr Upton is a biological Woman and I haven’t been clear enough in what I said.

I would love to know why trans people can’t use a fourth space.

every fucker in my work knows what happened to me. I have to go in there and face it and them every day. Everyone also knows I’m disabled every time I go to the disabled loo.

Why aren’t trans people held to the same standard?

Indeed. It is like debating with Susie Green.

Even in those circumstances I would not be prepared regard trans women as completely interchangeable with natal women because safety is not the only concern, privacy, dignity and protection from discrimination arising because of unique nature of the female body still count. I have worked in places that were reluctant to hire women of childbearing age but wouldn't have the same concerns about taking on a 30 years transwomen. If woman can mean person with a female body or person who really really thinks they should have a female body however the hell do you right legal protections in to law? How can you codified sexual discrimination if you can't codify sex.

There is no logical basis (or evidence base) for believing a man with predatory intentions would pretend to be trans to access these facilities.

5.3 The British Psychological Society (2015) described ‘a number of cases where men convicted of sex crimes have falsely claimed to be transgender females’. Several motivations were specified: ‘demonstrating reduced risk and so gaining parole; … explaining their sex offending aside from sexual gratification (e.g. wanting to “examine” young females); … separating their sex offending self (male) from their future self (female); … seeking better access to females and young children through presenting in an apparently female way’.

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/16943/pdf/

From that report:
"There is no evidence that transgender males are less violent or sexually predatory than males overall."

Indeed

3.2 There is evidence than transgender male prisoners are more likely to be sexually predatory than male prisoners overall.

Oh yes. I should have been cleared and should have stated "That's the point when a discussion can be started". There are other considerations to be had as you mentioned, and I don't have the presumption to decide for all women. But that's to me the minimal prerequisite to have the discussion.

Sorry, popstarpoppy, just to clarify, I don't refer to you describing the theory with a great more strength than a theory, of course. I am agreeing with you.

And it's not just about safety. It's about having spaces (physical or cultural) where female voices, experiences and perspectives can be given and heard in the raw, unmediated by reference/ deference to male feelings and not reframed by men's need to own and restate our words to highlight the interpretations they consider most important

These are all valid points, sorry if I wasn't clearer.

Tandora's apparent need for unquestioning validation of their views seems vaguely familiar of something....

Not problem, it is for the benefit of those that insist that trans women are lovely and could never harm anyone and that any evidence to the contrary 'isn't what trans is' therefore trans women should be treated as women but don't seem to count anything other than physical risk as mattering to women. Even if trans women were 100% completely harmless they still aren't women and women still have the right to legal protection, dignity and privacy as well as safety.

Thanks Murky. I forgot about this paper from Michael Biggs.

"A cognition" now.
A thought, a belief, a sense of knowing, a feeling. Any of those with adjectives of great muchness.

People's feelings, instincts, deeply held beliefs, cognitions or whatever other word you want to use to describe them, they're not a reliable guide to reality. They're frequently mistaken. They come from somewhere in the person's learned understanding of the world. How does the person know their cognition is that they're a w-o-m-a-n and not that they're an orange? Because they have associated in their minds some meaning to the group women that their cognition says they belong to.

Either their cognition is that they have female bodies - in which case it's a delusion, as they don't. People do suffer delusions, it's not an insult or a judgement. Or they've associated an incorrect meaning with the word women, and attached their cognition to that.

Compare to gay which is very simple. Do you feel sexual attraction to this group (men) or that group (women) or both. Done. If someone said they had a cognition that they were gay but in reality they were attracted to the opposite sex, their cognition would be mistaken. If a doctor asked them how they experienced their feeling of attraction to the other sex they could describe it.

I can describe what feeling hot feels like, I can describe what feeling hungry feels like, I can describe what feeling tired feels like, I can describe what feeling a sexual attraction feels like.

What does feeling like a woman feel like?