TRA Trolls - can we just say NO?

[BlueEyedBogWitch]

A full thread of NO’s might be more powerful than trying to reason with someone who is not interested in reason.

Just one ‘NO’ each, until they get bored and go away. Every time.

After all, it sums up our arguments very succinctly.

"The usual suspects can call us trolls and hopefully hide the thread(s)."

Why? Do the people who want their very own thread ever stop themselves contributing to a thread that they don't agree with? If not, why should anyone else? As long as the posts contributed are within the talk guidelines, MN is not the place to have an exclusive discussion.

@DahnFrumLunden
"disinformation, and desire to shame anyone who doesn't agree"

Read what you wrote very slowly. Think about it.

FFS Tandora, there is a whole bloody thread running right now dedicated to trying to understand what you are saying!

The problem is not that people are not considering or not trying to understand, the problem is that there is what you believe about trans people, there is the reality that many people who actually say they are trans do not fit that model, and neither justify the demands that are being made of women (original female meaning) in their name.

The second and third may not matter to you but they sure as hell matter to women who are being pressurised and sonetimes mandated to give up sex based rights, protections, opportunities and even our own language, voice abs history.

We can only consider and understand what you actually say, and you are saying nothing that explains the second, and nothing that justifies the first.

That is why you are being challenged. Not because we are not trying to consider and understand, but because we are indeed considering deeply, and understanding all too well.

No, I'm not going to stop naming transphobia, transphobia. That's important.

You do know that a phobia is an irrational fear? It's entirely rational to be afraid of men in spaces where you might be vulnerable as a woman, e.g. semi clothed.

I believe you believe that.

Well there's a first for everything I suppose! :)

Blue is actually red, up is down, left means right, hot means cold, 4+4 actually equals 10. Because I want it to. I’ll call you phobic if you disagree with me on these points. That’s basically you, across many, many threads. It’s so pointless to engage.

And those us of who are falsely labelled transphobic to deligitimise the female sex specific voice will continue to highlight your lie.

Obviously, not all MN posters are cut from the same cloth, but I don't think anyone can truly - hand on heart - say there isn't an ugly, rabid, anti-trans and pro-GC sentiment here that is truly despicable.

What is despicable about being critical of the damage gender identity ideology is doing both to women's sex-based rights and to our wider society? I am a sex realist and therefore don't accept that a man who feels inwardly (but unprovably to others) that he's a woman actually is a woman and therefore belongs in our single-sex spaces, services and sports. That is a protected lawful belief and the Supreme Court judgment in April supports it by confirming that even a GRC doesn't make a man a woman where single-sex provisions are concerned. I'm also a lifelong left-of-centre feminist, old enough to have been part of the second wave and take deep exception to the ugliness of your language towards women who don't share your opinions.

Then please don't. I don't think you and I have ever had a productive exchange about anything. You only ever reply to me to put me down and try to make me look stupid.

Erm, I think you manage that on your own with what you post.

You don't need any help with that.

You can disagree with me that x, y, z is transphobic, that's fine, but it's the constant attempts to degrade, demean, insult and undermine the person that need to stop.

You saying "your lie" is a good example of this. I am not lying I have a different perspective on what is transphobic than you.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/lying-definition/

Serious question. Do you have any evidence (actual incontrovertible proof) that on planet earth there exists a single "man who feels inwardly (but unprovably to others) that he's a woman actually is a woman and therefore belongs in our single-sex spaces, services and sports". Bearing in mind that the word woman has a long-established meaning, and every single man, however stupid he claims to be, knows he came out of a vagina haver and not a penis haver.

Perfect demonstration.

Again. Excellent demonstration of the point.

Well, exactly. There is such a thing as anti-trans sentiment - people can call it phobic if they like - but it doesn't do anyone, including trans people, any good to stick that label on situations where fear of a male person in a female space is rational.

Tandora might remember Laurie Penny's line that, if your small daughter sees a penis in a female changing room, you should tell her that it's rude to stare. Was that helpful to trans people? In terms of the broader Wi Spa story, was it helpful for trans allies in media and politics to come out in favour of flashers' rights?

For all the talk about "LGBTQ+", a remarkable number of TRAs haven't studied the history of the gay rights movement, which (a) was fundamentally a liberal movement calling to be treated the same as straight people, rather than having special privileges, and (b) the gay movement had to put in a lot of effort over many years to sideline the weirdos and extremists and nonces, so it could even get a hearing.

There are helpful lessons there for anyone who wants to learn them.

Yes, it was. We agree!

So, you will berate, demonise and accuse a poster of hateful things based on your own personal definition that has been shown time and time again to not be reasonable. But if others make accusations you feel are not true about you, you can claim to be a victim of bullying.

Do you see any issue with this?

Oh Tandora. I always believed you think you are right.

I don't think you are a bad person.

I just think you are wrong.

And that would be ok, except that this ideology you are pushing, this assumption that a hypothesised inner gender identity is a more appropriate differentiator than sex when it comes to the rights, protections and opportunities that society provides to women as a mitigation for the social and physical consequences that come with being female, and a more appropriate understanding of womanhood politically, socially, culturally and historically than the political, social, cultural and historical experiences and needs and voices of female people, is bad for female people, and as a Feminist I cannot let that stand unchallenged.

It's not personal. I'm sure you are a lovely person. But it matters.

It's kind of like how "Islamophobic" gets used to try to shut down reasonable criticism of Islam. Can we just stick to the arguments please.

I am not going to stop calling things that are transphobic, transphobic in a discussion about trans people.

This isn't an attempt to smear, belittle, demean, berate, dehumanise, accuse the person, it's simply an attempt to describe the nature of something

Racism exists and we should name it. It doesn't mean the person is hateful, or even that they have malicious intentions, but we are all affected by / influenced by racism, it's part of our culture and it's really important to talk about that.

I don't think you are a bad person. I just think you are wrong.

Thank you xx

Dr Upton.

India Willoughby.

They both claim to be biological women, because they have redefined to their own satisfaction at least what the word "woman" means, and believe this gives them a moral right of access to all the resources made over to women under the original definition.