TRA Trolls - can we just say NO?

[BlueEyedBogWitch]

A full thread of NO’s might be more powerful than trying to reason with someone who is not interested in reason.

Just one ‘NO’ each, until they get bored and go away. Every time.

After all, it sums up our arguments very succinctly.

There's an interview with Serena Williams on Letterman where she talks about men's and women's tennis being like completely different sports due to the power difference between men and women

great

I pick sport, hospital wards, prisons, women's prizes, and the ladies lavs as things that should have their access limited by birth sex

sounds like we're all in agreement and can call it a night

To be clear, I will never allow someone who brazenly says that there's "nothing wrong with being transphobic" to define/ control the terms of this conversation.

I know, in practice, it does. But that is clearly absurd and stupid.

Exactly. If we all agree males are excluded from all female spaces abd transphobia is a meaningless word, it’s all sorted.

@Tandora MN needs to get better at moderating those posts which are ableist, racist, misogynistic and transphobic. However given the fairly recent influx of extreme far right posters, mainly of whom were men, who were allowed to continue posting blatantly racist and misogynistic nonsense - it’s clear MN doesn’t care. It creates more traction at the end of the day.

Research shows that trying to engage in debate with people who hold intransigent extreme beliefs, only serves for the person to double down. I think in this case you are a target for people to take their frustration out on, in respect to gender identity politics / womens rights / gender ideology. I can understand their frustrations to a point, but surely time would be better spent campaigning and/or contributing to research in this area rather than trying to score points and win an argument with a stranger on the internet who happens to have empathy for transgender individuals. I do think people have become more extreme in their thinking more generally, and MN is a microcosm which demonstrates this.

I pick.....
sounds like we're all in agreement and can call it a night

Silly me. I thought we were having a grown up conversation .
I need to stop making this mistake on this board..

Definitely extremism is on the rise and social media has a lot to play in that

🤣🤣🤣

There already is this categorisation though. Based on sex class first.

What new categories in female sport should there be? None that include male people. Have mixed sex sport with set numbers of each sex if it is at all competive.

So what new sub categories do female sports categories need?

Just musing generally here:

If there was a person who wasn't sure if gender identities were a) things that existed and b) are different from sex, and thought the Stonewall (and many trans charities', and trans folks') definition of trans in this way was unhelpful language games.

Would that view be considered anti-trans, or transphobic? It rejects, or at least does not fully accept, how some people define themselves as having gender identities (separate from bodily sex) and seems to reduce what 'trans' means to only include people who want to be the opposite sex.

Is it transphobic to say that 'woman' aligns in some way with 'female'? Or is it more pro-trans to think there is nothing female about a woman?

Is it transphobic to say there are differences - whatever you believe them to be - between what you consider to be men and what you consider to be women?

Lots of interesting discussions to be had about what is or isn't transphobic, because this does seem to throw a lot of people. I don't expect answers because it requires a fair bit of self-awareness to be able to scrutinise your own position on something like this.

You are of course free to continue calling everyone transphobic for not agreeing with your male-worshipping beliefs.

No sorry I refuse to be cowed by people who tell me my feminist views are transphobic. I'll take their label as a badge of honour.

Anyway, we won. The highest court in the land is transphobic too.

Any service where people are segregated by sex. As the Supreme Court judgement explained.

It sure is. Sad times.

But we are. You agreed women need single sex spaces. So we all agree. Males keep out of female spaces and everyone is happy.

I don't think there would be much disagreement between either 'side' of the debate on the notion that "sex exists: in situations where it doesn't matter then treat everyone equally, and if it does matter then don't lie about it."

And most trans people would (I assume, I've not asked everyone) agree that there are times where sex DOES matter - such as medical treatment, assessing various risks, including pregnancy, etc.

The area of disagreement is on the finer points of where it does and doesn't matter. Generally, where we already differentiate by sex it's for a reason - and that should be considered rather than dismissed.

if only you were right on your first two assumptions! No, there’s no such agreement from many transactivists.

I'm now at the point where I'm almost enjoying this thread. Tandora is doing a sterling job of trying to sound reasonable, but is compelled by their belief to lift the lid off transgender ideology.

Tandora's Box, as it were.

All the evils flapping their wings and flying around in a cloud of doom for everyone to see.

Transactivism blowing off all its toes, as it shoots itself in the foot.

Again.

More smears, insults, and defamation.

Ad homs are not reasoned argument.

I mean if ad homs have any effect, its revealing a paucity of reason.

people who hold intransigent extreme beliefs,

Like women who have been traumatised by sex abuse would like a space to change without a man in it?

Or that men are women if they reeely feel it?

I wonder what the survey would say.

They think they’re being clever but never actually answer direct questions.

"That PP" is me.

I utterly reject your false assertion that I think "someone else being trans" harms me.

As I already said in my response to that allegation, what harms women (original sex based meaning) is not how the trans person may see themself, it is the legal or social act of accomodating trans women's self image by pretending they are female bodied rather than male bodied and requiring women (OSM) by exercising legal or social power to deny their own needs and their own self image and play along.

For now I will assume you made an honest mistake.

You now have no excuse to misrepresent me.

If you ever say this again I will call you out as a liar.