J.K Rowling's Position

[middler]

I am not a regular on these boards but I am aware of the controversy over J K Rowling's position as I have encountered so many young people who have become very hostile with me if I do not show that I do not go along with them in their views that she is the equivalent of a racist in her attitude towards racists. I try and stay neutral and not declare my views but that is not enough for them. They want tos ee you express the same vitriol that they have so they can be assured you are on the same side. I find it so anti democratic frankly.

Privately I was relieved with the British ruling that means trans women who may well still have a penis and all the bad actors who could then take full advantage of a law that allowed transwomen into women only spaces, are not allowed to access those women spaces. I appreciate that most transwomen just want to go about leading their daily lives identifying as women and using women spaces is part of that and they have no ill intent. But many do not have bottom surgery and so yes they still have a penis as do the men who can just wake up one day and say they identify as a woman and start using those women only spaces and not have good intent? What am I missing? Why don't the younger generation see this and get that it is a huge risk to women? Do they think that there will be no bad actors? I just do not get it. The law is not to punish transwomen. It's to protect women.

I am not without sympathy for transwomen who genuinely feel uncomfortable going into male spaces. I appreciate that they identify as female but I just feel it's a conflict of rights and that you cannot sacrifice the right of women to feel safe in a women only space so that the smaller % of transwomen do not feel uncomfortable. Safety trumps comfort.

I personally would not react to a transwoman being in a female toilet but then I am aware how do I know it is a genuine transwoman and not a bad actor so I appreciate other women not being comfortable.
Maybe we need additional gender neutral toilets in this day and age.

But when this topic comes up with many younger people I can tell that the fact that I do not join in with the hatred for JK Rowling, that it puts me in the pro JK Rowling camp and I do agree with her support of ensuring that law got passed.

I am not so sure about the comments she made about kids not being trans as I think some kids as teens do seem to think they are in the wrong gender, maybe not in the large numbers that we are seeing today but clearly some people do feel they were born in the wrong gender and as a society I think we do have to support them without sacrificing the rights of an other group.

Rowling has never expressed hate for transpeople as far as I am aware. I do think she can be provocative in how she expressed her views and that is her choice but I just do not understand how the younger generation claim she is the equivalent of a racist but with trans rights? The language they use about her is so strong and I really try to avoid conversations about her because it has become so divisive- it is hard to find a millennial who does not agree with Emma Watson's viewpoint.

I am not 100% up to date with all Rowling has said but what has she said that is so bad that the younger generation have such deep hatred for her? I am just trying to understand it better and be ready to respond to the vitriol I get from younger colleagues when it comes up as it does seem to.

CORRECTION

I am not a regular on these boards but I am aware of the controversy over J K Rowling's position as I have encountered so many young people who have become very hostile with me if I do not show that I do not go along with them in their views that she is the equivalent of a racist in her attitude towards transpeople.

She hasn't said anything hateful. The younger generation have been brainwashed into thinking that anything other than full-throated affirmation of trans identities is 'hate'.

They have not seemed to consider the impact men in women's spaces might have on some women.

honestly I wouldn't bother engaging if they start with the vitriol. As is said on here many times, they didn't reason themselves into their position so they can't be reasoned out of it.

But how can they not consider what men dressed up as women with fully intact penises could do to women?
I do not speak of genuine transwomen- who have no intention of harming women but how can they not see there would be no way of knowing who these people were compared to disingenuous people? Do they just think there will be no bad actors? Do they think all transwomen have bottom surgery?

Have you read the JKR essay OP?

https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

@middler* *"I am not 100% up to date with all Rowling has said but what has she said that is so bad that the younger generation have such deep hatred for her?"

She hasn't said anything that justifies deep hatred from anyone.

And why ask posters on FWR? It's a mystery to us too. Ask anyone hating on JKR for details of her offences and you'll never get a proper answer.

I do not speak of genuine transwomen - who have no intention of harming women

What is a genuine transwoman @middler?

Thanks I have not I will read it. Just want to get better informed.I am sick of being told what to think by the thought bullies frankly and I see myself as someone who supports transpeople. But I support women too. And if women do not feel safe with transwomen coming in their prisons, their refuges, their changing rooms etc then their safety is more important than the transwomen's feelings I am afraid. We do I suppose have to find a way of protecting transpeople in places like prisons because I am sure they could well be vulnerable too but that does not mean allowing transwomen with penises in those spaces.

Just smile and move on. It’s so fashionable to hate her. Sooner or later everyone I like or liked attacks her. I know she’s right and I know I’m right so I don’t care.
My kids whose ages range from 17 - 22 agree with me. They see the they/them brigade as attention seeking pains - because of the experiences they’ve had of them at school.
Don’t bother with these people it’s a cult.

It's a good question.

I suspect many of them arent thinking at all.

Some just won't let themselves engage, because transwomen are the 'most oppressed' and women's oppression is uninteresting / supporting them doesnt confer status.

Lots of young women (and men) are deeply influenced by the misogynistic undertones of society. They don't think women's needs are as important as men's needs. Not that they'd voice that, but their actions demonstrate it. On this issue, it tends to be older women speaking out against it and so there's a nice dollop of ageism here too.

No doubt some do think all TW have surgery. That's pure ignorance on their part and no interest in finding out the facts.

They are innocent about the world and what men are capable of, so they can't conceive of a man 'identifying as a womam' for anything other than genuine reasons. They can't conceive of it being motivated by fetish or a desire to exert power over women.

Thats just off the top of my head, I'll come back if I think of any more.

and why does being a ‘genuine transwoman’ automatically mean said individual has no intention of harming women?

and even if he’s not doing it intentionally, his presence in women’s spaces still harms women.

and even if he never goes in women’s spaces, saying he’s a woman because of what he feels inside, implying that all women think and feel the same way embeds sexism and harms women

I think you'd need to ask the people who have a deep hatred of JKR to explain why they feel that way, it doesn't make sense because she hasn't said or done anything that is 'hateful'.
But there's no explaining irrational hatreds especially ones that are passed from social media user to social media user, without any regard for the facts about JKR.

She's mainly hated by TRA's because they cannot make her shut up. She's too rich to ruin and doesn't care about being canceled. She's said herself that her position means that she can support the women who cannot speak up about the erosion of women's legal rights to single sex services because of fear of losing their livelihoods, being doxxed etc. Therefore she must be painted as the devil by TRA's.

The mantra 'JKR is the devil' has been added to the litany of mantras designed to restrict further discussion - TWAW, no debate, no platforming being others. Deviation from these mantras is unacceptable, especially for younger people not wishing to be ejected from their crowd for having the 'wrong' opinions.

You'll find many people decrying JKR have not read her entirely balanced essay. Opinions come 2nd or 3rd hand from activists 'interpreting' her words.

You will often find a total reluctance to acknowledge JKR's support for women's rights. Before she set up Beira's Place, there was no female single sex rape crisis services in the Edinburgh and the Lothians. She completely funds it so no money or resources are diverted from the Scottish Government funded organisations, who choose not to provide such a service. But that simply wasn't acceptable. For ideological reasons. Instead the ERCC harmed female rape survivors.

OP, your viewpoint is entirely reasonable and balanced. But for those so entrenched in mantras, there is no concept of plurality of opinion.

A 'genuine transwoman' for me would be someone who 'identifies as a woman' in the way that transwomen express that and wants to live as a woman as opposed to what I understand as a bad actor- a man who identifies as a man, lives his life as a hetrosexual man and takes on the costume of a woman and pretends they are transgender with bad intentions and potentially the intention to hurt women.That person could use any law that recognizes transwomen as having equal status as biological women to harm women. I suppose I am making that distinction rather than getting into the deep gender politics of it which I know there are many big conversation to be had about.

I recognize there are clearly people who feel they have been born in the wrong sex and wish to transition gender. I think the numbers we are seeing today are perhaps higher due to the possibility of being a transperson being so prominent in the conversation in this part of the world but I think there have always been people who have felt they are in the wrong gender and wish to transition. There have also always been people with non good intentions who will take advantage of any law once it is passed.

OP, I suspect you will get posters declaring that she is nasty to some people. It always pays to look further than these statements because she is often being censured by people who think she should absorb the abuse she personally gets and she should ignore those abusing other women.

If someone makes that claim, please look further and judge for yourself. Look at the tweeting history or just the known history of the person those posters refer too. All too often those posters are supporting an abuser by expecting the victim to remain silent and not respond. They say she doesn’t stay classy, or she should just talk about other things, things those posters declare should be more important to her.

Once you see the dynamic, you will not miss it again. You might see it over and over again- we see it on these threads all too regularly.

Letting males (however they identify, however 'nice' they are, however genuinely they believe themselves to be 'born in the wrong body') access women's single sex services and allowing institutional capture on the basis of self ID harms women.

Even just here in Scotland, there are multiple examples of this -

Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre - https://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/resources/ERCC-Review-Report-FINAL1-.pdf

Scottish Prison Service - https://thecritic.co.uk/the-revised-scottish-prison-service-transgender-prisoner-policy-is-not-fit-for-purpose/

The opposition to the six words amendment of the Forensic Medical Examiner Services Act - https://www.holyrood.com/editors-column/view,six-little-words-for-the-word-gender-substitute-sex

You seem to be focusing on whether TW still have a penis but to me that's irrelevant. I don't care whether they're intact or not, either way they're a man and therefore should not be in women's spaces/sports. Bringing this issue into the discussion just muddies the waters in my opinion, it implies you'd ok with them using women's spaces if they've had the surgery.

I recognize there are clearly people who feel they have been born in the wrong sex and wish to transition gender.

but so what? Unless you think such people actually change sex?

I agree with the point upthread, that JKR is hated because she is un-cancellable and her money gives her options that other people don't have (funding Beira's place, offering to fund law suits).

But also because her original essay was so damn calm, reasonable, reasoned, caring. She cut through all their crap, focused on the vulnerable women who would suffer because of that. They hate her because she is 100% right and prepared to call them on their bullshit.

All of them are lying as they cannot change sex and cannot live as a woman, whatever that is (no one has ever explained). So bad actors all round, I'm afraid. Good behaviour notwithstanding.

To be fair, the OP is saying no mam should be in women's spaces.

Thanks everyone lots to think on. I suppose I am here as I did try and broadly defend her and I got shot down so hard and asked had I read what she had written- I realised I just had the gist of what she says so I will read the essay shared. But it is the bullying culture I cannot stand because if you do not agree then it quickly gets round the work cliche and you are persona non grata and yet the all pride themselves on being so liberal and they are a right bunch of intolerant extremists and so judgmental of anyone who does not agree exactly with them. I am so so sick of young people trying to tell me what I should be thinking and they give you that " I'm gonna cancel you" look....I am so so over them, such tedious people to be around. You cannot have an intelligent conversation or a discussion- what happened that they turned out this way? This generation. I am a 70s kid and grew up knowing people had different opinions to me and never had this hubris and arrogance that people should think the same as me. I feel like I want to defend Rowling who has the guts to stand up to them all ...and yet it is not worth it because it just makes your work environment uncomfortable. So in the end ignore and fake smile is probably the way to go...

This is an original post.

I think the OP is getting a hard time here, distracting from her original and important question.

I don't think there are any genuine 'transwomen', but it is fair to say that some trans identifying men are more genuine in their motivations than others. The OP is not arguing these men should be in women's spaces.

...........but that does not mean allowing transwomen with penises in those spaces
The vast majority of transwomen still have their penises. Almost all of them, in fact.