Waterside Arts Centre Sale clearly ignoring Supreme Court

[SigrunGard]

i was at the Waterside last night with my partner. The Women’s was marked “women’s” but then written on the door in large letters was something to the effect of please feel free to use whichever facilities” match your gender identity or gender expression “. Mentioned it to my partner who said the same was on the door to the men’s ( he said someone asked a friend what that meant and the reply was apparently” some modern bollocks” - hard to argue!)

I rather feel I should email them and point out that this is not right- anyone got suggestions for wording that doesn’t just make me sound bigoted!?

thanks

Looks like they’ve doubled down with “ gender identity or expression “ since you complained

i have emailed but not holding my breath!

Honestly, I am embarrassed to say I can't remember. I have just opened the portal and it looks familiar but I can't find any record in my emails of having done it, or a reply. I suspect I just got weary and gave up.
In 2023 the council would have backed them, I have no doubt about that, but I should have stuck with it.

Presumably even if you did, the complaint wasn’t upheld

and it was after the ruling you emailed them whereby they suggested the complaints portal

No it was before sorry. When I emailed after the ruling they just didn't reply at all.

Post ruling was the time to follow their suggestion of submitting a formal complaint

Yes I agree with you. My plan was see what they said then respond accordingly, but when they didn't reply it went out my head. So I failed in my task. I haven't been back to the venue to since 2023, it's OP's thread that's reminded me it needs following up and confirmed they are still going with the free for all signage.

It’s not too late..,,

All of that wiffle waffle and you have not once considered or mentioned that women can have feelings of comfort and discomfort too, which is why we have single sex facilities in certain types of circumstance.

A better solution to pretending that women don't exist as a distinct social grouping with human rights and dignity would be to install what an arts venue in my city has done.....which is to create an additional 'gender neutral' facility for those that don't feel comfortable with using the facilities for their sex, This works perfectly well and meets everyone's needs for dignity and privacy.

What you are calling 'segregation' exists for the benefit of female people in circumstances in which the body and/or its biological function is paramount. Sex is real. No such thing as 'non binary'.

Women have the legal right to a man-free loo and all other single sex spaces.

End of.

Because of wangling like this, and that women's rights are given grudgingly only when it's compulsory, and because their equality is based on having to force people like you to permit it.

There can be exciting sparkly toilets everywhere with ridiculous word salad on them, so long as there are also sufficient women only ones and men stay out of them.

Gob smacking misogyny - that a woman may only ask for a space she feels comfortable in after a man has sufficiently battered her. While he indulged his power to have her space and be comfy in it.

I could idly wonder what degree of assault and battery would make this poster actually consider granting a woman a few crumbs from the men's table. Because I'll bet it would have to be considerable.

Revolting. And they mention actual civil rights heroes while behaving like this.

given that men are clearly the concern here, how do you all feel about the trans men who, as ‘biological women’ are forced to use the male toilets?

How concerned are you for their safety?

I'm not sure what you are asking.
Why would women be "forced" to use men's toilets?

I have no issue with trans men as biological women using the women’s toilets? I’m not quite sure how they are forced to use the men’s

Have you read the judgment at all?

They aren't: they should use toilets for their sex or mixed sex facilities.

In some circumstances where someone presenting as a man may affect women in women's single sex spaces - mentioned in the context of rape crisis services - additional facilities should be provided so that no one is left without a facility.

Many women with trans identities have spoken about the efforts they go to in order to be sensitive to women's needs, in stark contrast to men with trans identities. It's very noticable that there have been no complaints or court cases caused by the behaviours of a woman with a trans identity in a man's space, particularly one where a man was excluded or harmed, compared to the whole list of cases caused by a man with a trans identity in a woman's space.

Who is going to pay for the lawsuit ?

Why the sneer quotes round the factual phrase that women with a trans identity are biological women?
And they are the opposite of 'forced to' use men's loos and other facilities; as per the SC clarification, they should use the facilities for their sex.

The phrase ‘your one wild and precious life’ comes from a poem by the incomparable Mary Oliver (The Summer Day).

What are you talking about?? Transmen are biological women and welcome in women's loos

if they choose to go into men's loos then that's men's problem to sort out. Perhaps they could form a For Men Scotland and take the government to court.....

As I mentioned above.....a discrete. separate 'gender neutral' facility would suffice as in the arts centre I mentioned above.

Biological women can use the female toilets, of course, but some may well still feel uncomfortable with that ( which the Supreme Court recognised). If they pass sufficiently to be genuinely thought of as men, then in trans theory, there would be no harm in them using the men's would there?

Women in a men's facility simply don't pose the same issues as a man in a woman's facility.

I feel like a load of local women need to go and sticker the shit out of that joint.

So in that case they all need to be labeled unisex? But once you write woman/man it has to mean biological sex?

Could you have a sign that was like this

Women+Men and then Men+Women and everyone takes that to mean choose the one with the word you identify most with first? But no one would stop either sex using both?

That wouldn't be lawful.
Unisex loos have to be self-contained rooms - I'd be willing to bet that the communal toilet blocks have washbasins outside the cubicles. I think there would be other issues as well - iirc, unisex toilets have to open onto an open, public area. Communal toilets are usually around 2 corners for privacy.

Also, although single sex toilets are not explicitly mandatory, there is a duty not to discriminate on the grounds of sex. There is case law and opinion that NOT providing single sex loos for women (where space permits) is indirect or direct discrimination because women are more disadvantaged by unisex toilets than men are. Plus the previously men's toilets probably have urinals in them, and expecting women and men to mingle in that area deprives both sexes of their human rights to dignity and privacy - case law again.

So no, rebadging both as women+men/men+women wouldn't work.

Can unisex loos have the communal sink area if the loo cubicles are floor to ceiling self contained?

A new discovery for me. You can never have too much poetry! Thank you v much IsadoraBathrobe x

No. There is a specification for unisex 'universal' toilets, and they must have handwashing facilities inside. Mixed sex handwashing facilities are not OK.