Page 25 | A little piece of insight

Tandora · 2025-10-02T12:48:48+00:00

Into a topic so woefully misunderstood.

Original poster

Tandora · 03/10/2025 13:03

LorrieTosh · 03/10/2025 12:53

No one is lying about reality or affirming delusions - this is your misunderstanding and projection. Actually, what we are doing is acknowledging the reality of trans experience. Because trans experience is real.

It’s interesting that you appear to have a blind spot for people who’ve said “I thought I was trans but it was actually mental illness and/or trauma”. How do they fit into your attempts to define what it means to be trans? If they were trans once but they’re not now, would that undermine the ‘reality’ of the experience? If they were never really trans, does that undermine an approach of automatic affirmation?

I experienced “gender dysphoria” (wishing I had been born a boy from around the age of 5, identifying as NB for a while as an adult). I didn’t fit in with the other girls when I was young; I didn’t like the things they liked, didn’t want to wear dresses, preferred cars to Barbies. As a teen I didn’t see the point of make up, I wanted my hair short, and I preferred boy’s clothes and trainers. I had ‘male’ coded interests and hobbies, got on better with boys, and understood the boy’s social rules better. When I began to receive inappropriate attention from adult men, wearing loose men’s clothes helped hide my female body. Eventually I wanted to have my breasts removed - they marked me as female no matter what I wore or how short my hair was, and I hated them.

Was my desperate wish that I’d been born male instead of female “the reality of trans experience”? Would you have affirmed me? Told me I was brave and real and “valid” and used male pronouns and fought those nasty transphobes who suggested it might be an idea to seek some counselling (when god dammit it costs nothing to be KIND)?

The whole thing was actually just personal preference clashing with gendered societal expectations, combined with a trauma driven attempt to avoid the male gaze and opt out of gender stereotypes I didn’t want/didn’t understand how to exist within. The later preoccupation with hiding/removing my breasts was due to sexual assaults, not some innate ‘maleness’, and trauma counselling sorted that issue out. I’m much happier having had a lot of therapy and being totally comfortable being myself, in the body I was born with, than I ever could have been if I’d been encouraged to lean into these unhealthy coping mechanisms.

But sure, it’s ALWAYS real and valid, and affirming that people have been born in the wrong body is definitely, 100% of the time, the right thing to do! I’m literally the only person with an experience like this, so there is absolutely no possibility of anybody being harmed by your approach!

I expect you’ll ignore this and immediately jump back into suggesting anyone who disagrees with you is an uneducated bigot who needs to step outside of their own narrow assumptions and contemplate that different people have different experiences. No doubt you’ll wrap the empty statements up in some passive aggressive word salad with a garnish of moral superiority…how’s that approach been working out for you? Changed anyone’s mind yet?

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From your description here it doesn't sound like you had an experience that I would describe as being transgender, no.

As for you broader concerns - they are valid. There are developmental complexities involved in diagnosing all types of conditions.

Autism is a useful comparator - you may find this study on the persistence of autism spectrum disorder from early childhood interesting: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37782510/

Despite the findings in studies such as these, few people would doubt that ASD is real, and that for most individuals it is a persistent condition, underpinned by complex and durable neurological differences that cannot easily be 'cured'. The same is true for being trans. The existence of some people with transient experiences of dysphoria, or people who 'de-transition' does not refute the reality or durability of trans experience in many others.

Persistence of Autism Spectrum Disorder From Early Childhood Through School Age - PubMed

The findings of this cohort study suggest that among toddlers diagnosed with ASD, baseline adaptive function and sex may be associated with persistence of ASD.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37782510/

OP posts:

Taztoy · 03/10/2025 13:06

Any chance of an answer @Tandora ? I’m still here and I’m still waiting. I’ve been polite, I’ve engaged and yet you refuse to answer my questions. Why is that?

Original poster

Tandora · 03/10/2025 13:08

Taztoy · 03/10/2025 13:06

Any chance of an answer @Tandora ? I’m still here and I’m still waiting. I’ve been polite, I’ve engaged and yet you refuse to answer my questions. Why is that?

I am not clear what your questions are or how to answer them.

OP posts:

lcakethereforeIam · 03/10/2025 13:08

Yes, @Tandora please answer @Taztoy's question. Or do you best to.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/10/2025 13:09

Because Tands is highly selective in which questions to answer @Taztoy

CautiousLurker01 · 03/10/2025 13:09

@LorrieTosh I suspect it does.

Tan never responds to my posts because a) I never affirmed my DD when she Trans IDd (I am a transphobic bigot, therefore, I am sure) and b) my DD eventually came to the understanding that as she was autistic, gay, anxious and massively impacted by Covid/Lockdown that her belief that she was trans was erroneous and has consequently desisted. She is still a masc presenting, gender non-conforming in her dress style but she knows she is a young woman.

Her amazing therapist (ex Tavistock so knows a load more than many posters here) has worked with her for several years to help her unpick her negative feelings around being a woman/female in society as it is today, how being gay and autistic create barriers to the way she feels the world sees her, and how she functions in that world.

Unlike a friend of hers (DD of a friend of mine) who had a double mastectomy at 19 and has simply gone on to continue to attempt suicide and have further spells as a psychiatric inpatient, living in sheltered housing, choosing to alienate a family that loves her for all it’s flaws, on benefits and failing to graduate from the prestigious drama school she attended - ie the T and the surgery didn’t ‘cure’ her. In fact, it’s just fucked her over even more. She’s a woman/trans man, though, so clearly isn’t as important as Tan’s ‘trans women’, AKA men. Her lived experience doesn’t matter either. Only Tan’s perception of what her trans women’s lived experience matters, it seems.

Affirmation is a crock. And a fucking dangerous one at that.

Taztoy · 03/10/2025 13:10

Tandora · 03/10/2025 13:08

I am not clear what your questions are or how to answer them.

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In situations where there is sex segregation:

What toilets do you think trans people should use?

What sports teams should they play for?

What hospital wards should they be admitted to?

What part of the prison estate should they be housed in?

Do you believe trans people in the U.K. should obey the law?

And finally - why does the distress of a trans individual trump my distress?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/10/2025 13:10

Taztoy · 03/10/2025 12:16

What part of Dr Upton’s biology makes them a “biological woman”?

Why does the sadness of a trans woman trump my trauma?

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Fairly easy to start with @Tandora i think, no? Bumping two of Taz’ questions.

Fidgetbreak · 03/10/2025 13:11

Tandora · 03/10/2025 11:38

You are misunderstanding and projecting, because you can't see the other point of view..

The argument is not whether there are biological differences between trans women and cisgender women - of course there are biological differences. No one wants to deny anyone's ability to acknowledge and talk about these.

What people are arguing about is how we should talk about them, what words, what phrases should we use? How broad or precise or descriptive should we be in our use of language. Is "biological female" a precise or nebulous term?

To you the word "biological woman" means a woman who is biologically the same as you. But to a trans woman - this is exclusionary, as it fails to acknowledge the experience/ existence of trans women.

When Dr Upton says she is a "biological woman", she is not being dishonest or a "smarty-pants". She sincerely feels that this language appropriately describes her experience. To say that she is not a "biological woman" is to imply that her experience of who she is isn't real or natural or grounded in biology. And yet she knows that it is.

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Excellent. @Tandora you have perfectly set the stage to excel at your field of expertise. Can you please educate us on what the definition of 'female' is?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/10/2025 13:11

Taztoy · 03/10/2025 13:10

In situations where there is sex segregation:

What toilets do you think trans people should use?

What sports teams should they play for?

What hospital wards should they be admitted to?

What part of the prison estate should they be housed in?

Do you believe trans people in the U.K. should obey the law?

And finally - why does the distress of a trans individual trump my distress?

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There you go @Tandora- no excuse for missing them now.

Catiette · 03/10/2025 13:11

But ‚trans‘ isn’t necessarily a ‚persistent condition‘, Tandora. Reading your posts, I do actually wonder if you’re maybe not as informed as you think, and as many on this board. I’m currently reading ‚Time To Think‘ by Hannah Barnes, shortlisted for the Orwell Prize. It’s packed with testimony from experts - leading experts in some cases - in the field of gender medicine who believe that, actually, of children and young people identifying as transgender, only a small minority will persist, and that where they do persist after having been prescribed puberty blockers, evidence suggests that it may well be rather more due to the effects of these drugs than an innate, persistent ‚reality‘.

I can see you care deeply about transgender people, so hope you’ll explore some of the issues raised by posters here. I do genuinely think that arguments for complicating the word ‚female‘, and unquestioningly supporting accounts such as the opening post as a ‚reality‘ superior to that of other people, is actively damaging the demographic you seek to protect. It’s oversimplifying a complex umbrella of conditions and needs in a way that disregards their needs and, furthermore, alienates potential allies to your cause.

Dominoodles · 03/10/2025 13:13

If my child ever comes to me and tells me they're horribly uncomfortable and distressed in their body, I will speak to a doctor and a therapist. I will work on getting to the bottom of what is really causing those feelings. I would assure them that they're beautiful and worthy and that there is nothing wrong with their bodies.

What I won't do is agree that oh yeah, your body is absolutely wrong and we need to start you on drugs to change it. Your name is now bad, let's change it. Your clothes are now bad, let's change them.

Nah. A good parent would help a child feel better as who they already are, not trying to change them based on feelings of distress.

DeanElderberry · 03/10/2025 13:14

DeanElderberry · 03/10/2025 12:57

Since neither you nor I are trans, and both of us have studied the issue of gender in great depth and come to different conclusions, looking at the findings of others is useful, hence my repeated request that you read and comment on the words of the professional psychiatrist I linked to several times upthread.

Why are you so determined to ignore this clinician with extensive experience who wishes to help people in distress?

Gender Dysphoria is a venal lie that is causing untold damage to innumerable people. Let us instead re conceptualise Gender Dysphoria for what it truly is: Body Anxiety Disorder (BAD) a novel, culture-bound expression of disordered emotional functioning.

Let clinicians be free to help distressed clients using all of our clinical skills and expertise. Do not tie our hands. Do not criminalise us.

When it comes to Gender Dysphoria, John F Kennedy’s words come to mind. “We subject all facts to a prefabricated set of interpretations. We enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.”

We must now exercise thought and excise opinions. We must dismantle the teetering, cruel and destructive insanity of gender identity, gender dysphoria and gender affirming care.

We must drain Gender Dysphoria from our symptom pool.

x.com/Psychgirl211/status/1808825717204922755is -

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I beg her pardon. She is, of course, a psychologist. This is a psychological state.

ArabellaSaurus · 03/10/2025 13:14

Tandora · 03/10/2025 11:53

No one appointed me spokesperson. lol.
It's simply a subject that I have studied scientifically in great depth, and therefore know a vast amount about. I am trying to share that knowledge and understanding as it is a topic that is so woefully misrepresented and misunderstood.

There are a lot of people speaking on this topic at the moment, with a lot of very strong opinions, who know not the darndest thing about which they speak and have precisely zero insight into what being trans is. I have a responsibility to challenge that.

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I appreciate you trying to explain. We don't often get people who engage without insult.

Can you answer Taztoy's questions? I'll copy paste her post below:

' i have a mental illness caused by a man.
I can’t be in a space where there is a closed door and a man on the other side of that door.
Why do my needs have to come second to those of a man? Why does a man’s feeling trump mine?
Why is this even an argument when the law in the U.K. has been decided?
Finally, what toilet, sports teams, prisons, hospital wards etc do you think trans people should be placed on?'

Why do my needs have to come second to those of a man? Why does a man’s feeling trump mine?

Would love to hear your answer. Thanks in advance.

Taztoy · 03/10/2025 13:15

@Tandora if it would be helpful and enable you to keep up with the conversation I can go through the thread and quote every single time I’ve asked the questions? Since you seem to have missed them?

DeanElderberry · 03/10/2025 13:16

You and me both @Taztoy

Original poster

Tandora · 03/10/2025 13:17

Taztoy · 03/10/2025 13:10

In situations where there is sex segregation:

What toilets do you think trans people should use?

What sports teams should they play for?

What hospital wards should they be admitted to?

What part of the prison estate should they be housed in?

Do you believe trans people in the U.K. should obey the law?

And finally - why does the distress of a trans individual trump my distress?

Show quote history

None of these questions are what this thread is about, most of them (q. 1-5) relate to policy arrangements (r.e. the allocation of facilities/ services).

I could answer those questions, but it is my firm position that it is completely impossible to have a reasonable conversation about them when we can't even agree on the basics - what is trans experience? how does it affect people? why does it matter? etc etc.
This is clear when the debate starts and people just say "well trans women can use the toilet - they can use the men's" demonstrating a complete lack of insight/ understanding of trans experience, and what is at stake for trans people in this "debate".

Your final two questions - about the law and your trauma - are both logical fallacies/ straw men and therefore I am not able to answer either.

OP posts:

ChungKingDreams · 03/10/2025 13:19

Tandora · 03/10/2025 13:17

None of these questions are what this thread is about, most of them (q. 1-5) relate to policy arrangements (r.e. the allocation of facilities/ services).

I could answer those questions, but it is my firm position that it is completely impossible to have a reasonable conversation about them when we can't even agree on the basics - what is trans experience? how does it affect people? why does it matter? etc etc.
This is clear when the debate starts and people just say "well trans women can use the toilet - they can use the men's" demonstrating a complete lack of insight/ understanding of trans experience, and what is at stake for trans people in this "debate".

Your final two questions - about the law and your trauma - are both logical fallacies/ straw men and therefore I am not able to answer either.

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Wow, so her trauma is a strawman, but we all must take the trauma of transpeople super seriously?

FortheloveofPetethePlumber · 03/10/2025 13:19

Until women agree that they must accept men's expressed needs as superior to their own irrelevance and are willing to submit, they may not be honoured by engagement or explanation.

Ok, I'm good with that. I can live without that honour. It makes no odds anyway; women have the right to single sex spaces by law.

Original poster

Tandora · 03/10/2025 13:20

CautiousLurker01 · 03/10/2025 13:09

@LorrieTosh I suspect it does.

Tan never responds to my posts because a) I never affirmed my DD when she Trans IDd (I am a transphobic bigot, therefore, I am sure) and b) my DD eventually came to the understanding that as she was autistic, gay, anxious and massively impacted by Covid/Lockdown that her belief that she was trans was erroneous and has consequently desisted. She is still a masc presenting, gender non-conforming in her dress style but she knows she is a young woman.

Her amazing therapist (ex Tavistock so knows a load more than many posters here) has worked with her for several years to help her unpick her negative feelings around being a woman/female in society as it is today, how being gay and autistic create barriers to the way she feels the world sees her, and how she functions in that world.

Unlike a friend of hers (DD of a friend of mine) who had a double mastectomy at 19 and has simply gone on to continue to attempt suicide and have further spells as a psychiatric inpatient, living in sheltered housing, choosing to alienate a family that loves her for all it’s flaws, on benefits and failing to graduate from the prestigious drama school she attended - ie the T and the surgery didn’t ‘cure’ her. In fact, it’s just fucked her over even more. She’s a woman/trans man, though, so clearly isn’t as important as Tan’s ‘trans women’, AKA men. Her lived experience doesn’t matter either. Only Tan’s perception of what her trans women’s lived experience matters, it seems.

Affirmation is a crock. And a fucking dangerous one at that.

@CautiousLurker01 I do not know - have not retained - any information related to your personal experience or that of your DD.

I (mostly) don't engage with your posts, because I don't find the exchange to be productive.

OP posts:

Taztoy · 03/10/2025 13:20

Tandora · 03/10/2025 13:17

None of these questions are what this thread is about, most of them (q. 1-5) relate to policy arrangements (r.e. the allocation of facilities/ services).

I could answer those questions, but it is my firm position that it is completely impossible to have a reasonable conversation about them when we can't even agree on the basics - what is trans experience? how does it affect people? why does it matter? etc etc.
This is clear when the debate starts and people just say "well trans women can use the toilet - they can use the men's" demonstrating a complete lack of insight/ understanding of trans experience, and what is at stake for trans people in this "debate".

Your final two questions - about the law and your trauma - are both logical fallacies/ straw men and therefore I am not able to answer either.

Edited

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Thank you for this response. It is most elucidating.

IAmThePrettiestManOnMyIsland · 03/10/2025 13:22

Tandora · 02/10/2025 16:49

It means respecting that their experience is real, legitimate, valid, and allowing them to participate in society in a manner which is compatible with their dignity , privacy and wellbeing.

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So how does this look to you? Trans in women's spaces?

FortheloveofPetethePlumber · 03/10/2025 13:23

It's all remarkably Abrahamic isn't it? Thou shalt have no other God but men with gender identities, for it is a jealous God... and blind faith is the only path to enlightenment.

Taztoy · 03/10/2025 13:23

If trauma is a logical fallacy, then why does a trans persons trauma matter and mine doesn’t?

I’m distresssed. They’re distressed. What’s the difference?

Edit for an autocorrect

FortheloveofPetethePlumber · 03/10/2025 13:24

You're a woman, Taz. Not a real person. You're merely there to serve, not to expect anything for yourself.