Kelly v Leonardo Employment Tribunal Thread 2

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Ms BM Kelly v Leonardo UK Limited Employment Tribunal – hearing Case number: 8001497/2024

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Abbreviations:
C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
AL - Andrew R Letton VP People Shared Services Leonardo - respondent witness

Tribunal Tweets coverage here

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leonardo-uk-ltd

Thread 1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5416903-kelly-v-leonardo-employment-tribunal-29th-september-10am?page=1

NC: You must know by now that SC ruling in April has shown that that advice and guidance was completely wrong?
👊

I love how ST didn't require him to even touch the bundle and NC has him constantly going to yet another page. 😍

Ahhh, but the crucial point from Andy's perspective, is that he doesn't give a shit, so it doesn't count! 😡😡😡

He's not even bothered enough to put his fingers in his ears and go "la la la, I can't hear you". Sorry - I am going to step away and do some work. It's less incendiary. 😉

From TT

NC: back to the grounds of resistance. R next aim you state as justifying the policy - you say, treat staff with respect and dignity, according to gender they present. Why cd you not achieve that by offering them single-occupancy facililties?

AL: Well they cd have used the single-occupancy ones too.
NC: Not my point. You cd have given TW respect and dignity by keeping them out of ladies loos and offering single-occupancy instead?

He took advice from a 'safe' person so A OK.

Andy is talking about trans 'people'. I don't think he really knows the difference between TIMs and TIFs and what that means.

They had 3 trans staff.

In April what they should have done is told them is to use the single occupancy ones they'd shoved Maria in whilst they sorted their toilet policy so that women could have their toilets back.

From TT

AL: Well we considered that, but TW were already using the ladies, so it wd have been outing them if we changed policy.

NC: Do you know any T staff whose colleagues don't know their sex perfectly well?
AL: [missed]

You cd have given TW respect and dignity by keeping them out of ladies loos and offering single-occupancy instead?

This is the 'spitefulness' thing - they'll do anything to avoid respecting the law, and they'll take away existing facilities for women as a punishment.

NC has spotted this and is spelling it out.

So according to Andy if you know someone then they can’t be a physical or sexual abuser? That’s not what the stats say on sexual abuse of children by relatives.

From TT

NC: Let's assume there are some men at Leonardo who have had so much surgery that ppl might actually think they are female. Rare but let's say for sake of argument. Are you saying that it's OK for such a man to be in a ladies loo with his female colleagues not knowing about him?

It seems Andy is getting confused with transmen and transwomen and what they mean

Andy hasn't got a fucking clue what this is about.

Or a woman could go to use one of those two cubicles, forget the outer lock (perhaps she's distracted because she's just felt her period start) and she finds a man has come in behind her, locking the door.

From TT

NC: Isn't that an even greater breach of privacy than having a very obvious man in there?
AL: if a trans man -
NC: We have to clarify this. I am talking about a man here, who identifies as a woman.

Well yes, the other side of it is if she goes in and forgets to lock the outer door, he can follow her in and lock it behind him. That scenario gives me chills...

And because of the language he thinks a transman (trans-identifying woman) is a trans-identifying man. So transwoman is a woman. This is why us saying they are men is so important.

Pronouns etc are rohypnol. (Origin here on MN)

God what a selfish, misogynistic prick this witness is- imagine him being your HR lead. No wonder women don't complain.
All of us women know how lovely all male colleagues are don't we? I worked briefly for a male dominated employer - some of my colleagues were lovely but had to fend of constant requests/personal comments etc from others - couldn't wait to leave.
Other women have lovely male colleagues like this one
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tv/article-15155743/this-morning-stalker-channel-4-documentary-cat-deeley-ben-shephard.html

From TT
AL: I think - borderline - appearance -

NC: Do you accept that quite a lot of women have experience of sexual violence?
AL: Yes
NC: Almost invariably at hands of me
AL: Yes

NC: Those women lead ordinary lives. They are not just in refuges. They are in every workplace
AL: Yes fair to say that

NC: You don't know who those women are.
AL: No
NC: So when you provide a facility that says 'women only' on the door, you are saying this is a female only space, and that will be important for some women. Cd be very important indeed to women with hisotry or sexual trauma.

{Apologies - I really cannot hear hardly anythning of what AL says]

From TT

NC: If you are saying that it's OK for a man to be in women's toilets provided they don't know, is that those women can't be sure that there is not a man in those toilets.
AL: Yes I suppose.

NC: Whereas if your policy was that no man - no matter how he identifies, no matter what he believes about himself - your female staff could feel confident.
AL: I suppose.

Apart from the serious point about the danger to women, the idea of having to kick the wedge out from a door and then lock it and then remember to leave it unlocked again on your way out, isn't very much in keeping with
Leonardo is a global security company that realises multi-domain technological capabilities in Aerospace, Defence, and Security, is it?😏

I wish NC would pick up the point Maria made about casual sexism / not wanting male co-workers to know what stage of her menstrual cycle it was.

"Does it strike you NOW perhaps thinking about it for the first time..."

I’ve just heard back from the Newcastle ET, who says that the links will be issued the day before the hearing.