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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #54

1000 replies

nauticant · 28/09/2025 18:51

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to: [email protected].

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 from 3 September

OP posts:
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29
Brainworm · 14/10/2025 12:08

On the ‘othering’ point, it is sometimes inevitable and necessary.

If you are epileptic or pregnant, you might not be permitted into a venue upon completing your screening form. This act is othering but also necessary.

Preventing ‘othering’ is pretty impossible when you don’t posses the one characteristic that determines access. It is also not a reasonable justification for removing single sex provision

FortheloveofPetethePlumber · 14/10/2025 12:10

ThatCyanCat · 14/10/2025 11:20

Wasn't he offered a separate single occupancy space to change in? If a woman hadn't wanted to use the female communal space for some legitimate reason and was instead offered a private, single occupancy alternative, that would have been deemed a very generous solution and she'd probably have been thrilled. Nobody would have thought it was "othering". It's literally because he's male and everyone knows it that it's seen as "othering".

These people complain about designated unisex spaces being "othering" too, even though the whole point is that literally anyone can use them.

'Othering' - you are different (in sex) and I don't want you here when I'm taking my clothes off.

The whole fact that single sex facilities exist is because that is a wholly reasonable and justified thing to women and men. That some men feel that they should be special exceptions and women have no right to refuse them is what the SCJ sorted out. This is appropriate and legal othering.

Third spaces are the generous middle ground between 'no, you must change with the men' and 'women, that's the end of your rights and equality'. It's the balance of rights.

FortheloveofPetethePlumber · 14/10/2025 12:13

And as anyone knows who's looked into this horrible mess with any depth: 'othering' is only an attempt to try and gain leverage using a Big Emotive Word.

It isn't about othering at all.

CohensDiamondTeeth · 14/10/2025 12:24

FortheloveofPetethePlumber · 14/10/2025 12:10

'Othering' - you are different (in sex) and I don't want you here when I'm taking my clothes off.

The whole fact that single sex facilities exist is because that is a wholly reasonable and justified thing to women and men. That some men feel that they should be special exceptions and women have no right to refuse them is what the SCJ sorted out. This is appropriate and legal othering.

Third spaces are the generous middle ground between 'no, you must change with the men' and 'women, that's the end of your rights and equality'. It's the balance of rights.

Edited

This was my immediate thought too. It's not "othering", it's just recognising the difference in sex and acknowledging that single sex spaces are just that, sss.

So "othering" is the new argument against 3rd/4th spaces. The "it would be outing" argument was easily demolished, this one will be too.

It's just an attempted end run around single sex spaces again, but unfortunately for NHSF, JR and the ridiculous transluscent, the law still remains the law and women's single sex spaces are for women.

I've been waiting till I had something to contribute so I could add my well wishes to MyrtleLion, and then got so carried away with my thoughts I almost forgot! Get well soon @MyrtleLion Flowers

ThatCyanCat · 14/10/2025 12:29

Brainworm · 14/10/2025 12:08

On the ‘othering’ point, it is sometimes inevitable and necessary.

If you are epileptic or pregnant, you might not be permitted into a venue upon completing your screening form. This act is othering but also necessary.

Preventing ‘othering’ is pretty impossible when you don’t posses the one characteristic that determines access. It is also not a reasonable justification for removing single sex provision

Exactly. The only way to avoid any "othering" is if we are all completely identical in every respect or one massive Borg-like blob.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 14/10/2025 13:03

betterBeElwinNextIGuess · 14/10/2025 11:58

All best wishes to MyrtleLion, hope you're feeling better soon!

Re logical fallacies in the respondents' supplementary, the first one that strikes me forcefully is the one about needing to demonstrate that transwomen are statistically just like other men. Para 10:

But more fundamentally, to be successful in the indirect discrimination claim, Mrs Peggie would require the Tribunal to find as a fact that trans women are, in all respects and for all purposes, indistinguishable from cis men. [...] Again, the protected characteristic of gender reassignment simply would not exist if as a matter of fact trans women and cis men were wholly indistinguishable.

Having based some piece of law on statistical differences between men and women we do not need to reargue it for every definable subset of men. Suppose, for example, Fife had allowed a gay man, not a transwoman, into the changing room and things had proceeded as before, until in the end the argument had said instead:

But more fundamentally, to be successful in the indirect discrimination claim, Mrs Peggie would require the Tribunal to find as a fact that gay men are, in all respects and for all purposes, indistinguishable from straight men. [...] Again, the protected characteristic of sexual orientation simply would not exist if as a matter of fact gay men and straight men were wholly indistinguishable.

I don't think anyone would be tempted by that argument, but I think the two are logically parallel. There's an attempt in para 8 to suggest that it's somehow important that a transwoman "presents, to the outside world, as a woman" - but no attempt to connect that into the argument and explain what difference it makes.

Indeed. The question is not "Are transwomen completely identical to other men?' but 'Are transwomen identical to women?'

Keeptoiletssafe · 14/10/2025 13:03

As you know, I like to keep up with everyone’s views on toilets. I would like to emphasize I want to keep everyone safe that’s why I look at what everyone is reporting.

Since Translucent and RMW are being mentioned, I thought I should add a few sentences about what I have found about their views and how they haven’t thought it through. Some of this is a cut and paste from a couple of my other posts.

RMW wants mixed sex toilets for those in the process of transitioning but women’s toilets for those men who have transitioned to women. RMW doesn’t understand that makes all toilets mixed sex which means they all have to follow the less safe, less hygienic designs. However, throwing a spanner in the works is RMW’s admittance (on a tv show) that mixed sex toilets are ghettos (presumably referring to the less hygienic and less safe elements?) which contradicts everything RMW has said. This is all in the public realm.

If you look at Translucent (2025) and Stonewall (2018) in terms of their literature on toilets, the worst case scenario is a man flashed another man in protest that he was going to use the ladies and a man was pushed out of the ladies by two women when he refused to leave. These incidences can not have been nice and there are lots more incidences of people telling others they shouldn’t be in the toilets they are using.

However in the Transluscent booklet it has a trigger warning at the front about rape. I can not find any incident of anyone being raped in that booklet. People have mentioned ‘past incidents’ but not given any details. I work off facts I can verify as much as possible, and there’s been nothing I can find.

In contrast, I have a lot of data about what happens in mixed sex toilets. I have incidences of what has happened in ‘gender neutral’ designs, including loss of life, sexual assaults, rapes, hidden cameras etc. It has always been men who are the perpetrators. In this country, it was noted that a rape is reported at least every school day inside school premises. The locations where mentioned in the press are store cupboards and toilets (disabled toilets are quoted in other reports). It is logical that it would be a private space. There are many, many reports of sexual assaults in toilets in very public places (train carriages, stations, hospitals) - normally to women and children of both sexes.

In terms of toilets and isolation, it is unlikely that a wheelchair user can go out somewhere new without forward planning to find where there are open accessible toilets. There is a lot of evidence (over several decades) that elderly people do not go out if there aren’t enough public toilets in case of soiling themselves. Public toilet provision is much, much less than it used to be. All this is public knowledge too. It was discussed at length in a Government report in 2008 where there is no discussion at all about transgender people because it wasn’t a thing.

Honestly, public toilet provision is so expensive with the maintenance that goes with it. What we need is everyone to respect the toilets we still have but they never have so I can’t see why people are going to change. Unfortunately there will always be people who fall ill in toilets (irrespective of gender/sex etc). I often quote the loo is the place 11% of cardiac arrests happen. You need to know someone is in trouble asap and a door gap can, and has, saved lives. That’s why there’s no such thing as a ‘secured from the inside’ toilet cubicle/room in building regs. They have to have the ability to open the door outwards.

We are all safer in designs that are not completely private in an otherwise public space. We are all less likely to catch something too because it’s easier to clean and ventilate. This has been medically proven.

What we can do is to make sure anyone at their most vulnerable gets the safest and cleanest toilets, by having the default provision to be single sex toilets with door gaps above and below the door. Men in particular need to be kind and tolerant to all men and behave in toilets. Having sex and taking drugs should be discouraged.

The solution, if you had all the money in the world, would be to have another set of toilets everyone could use, with door gaps. Then mixed sex would have the same safety benefits. However, this, in my honest opinion, and research, would end up being the mens toilets. Women already self exclude from mixed sex toilets now as they feel less comfortable. Most men also don’t like being heard having a wee in earshot of women and there is a danger of paruresis.

What would be more beneficial, is more single sex ‘disabled’ toilets within single sex spaces. That means disabled women and their children in particular would be afforded the extra safety.

The mixed sex ‘disabled’ toilets would be for everyone but they need to be very closely monitored and regularly checked. This is usually not possible as, in most public toilets, supervision comes from strangers not attendants anymore.

So yes, I agree with RMW, in part, that mixed sex toilets are ghettos. This is why the single sex design with door gaps and a single sex area in front are better. But for that to happen, they need to be single sex. Single ‘gender’ are always private.

The people who are discriminated against if all toilets become private because they are mixed sex or ‘single gender’ are: those having a medical emergency (physical or mental health), those more likely to have a sudden medical emergency due to a medical condition (including those with certain disabilities like epilepsy), elderly (more likely to fall), children and women (more sexual assaults), people of certain religious faiths (will not use mixed sex toilets).

Can you tell me how gender neutral toilets are inclusive? They are least bad for healthy men.

Coatsoff42 · 14/10/2025 13:18

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/10/2025 12:08

i agree but the genderist arguments about privacy etc rely on the implausible idea that these men should be treated as if they were women at all times and the “othering” is treating them as if they are not just “women” like any other. It’s this fundamental piece of gaslighting at the heart of both JR’s and Translucent’s arguments.

If you want total privacy go live on an island for one.
Everyone else in a functioning society makes concessions around privacy.
Privacy around age and sex are not absolute because it affects others. Probably also loads of other things like infectious diseases. People don’t get accused of othering someone when they are admitted to an infectious disease ward with norovirus.

Im not as academic as half the people on here, its so frustrating how selfish it is and how long it’s dragging on for.

LackOfWordRecall · 14/10/2025 13:25

Oh @MyrtleLion I feel lots of sympathy for you, it’s a horrible situation. I once had an op cancelled five times, three on the day when already there, lasttime I did lose my shit. Wasn’t abusive but did raise my voice (in a not agressive way, and cried a LOT out of frustration. The nurse was honest n you cld tell she sympathised, not her fault it was a specialty op emergencies jumped queue or theatre staff refused me on dayas too risky . She said she had been taught to stand near emergency call button thingy(?) and in not to get between patient and door when telling cancelled people as lots of people got agressive and tried to attack her which was eye open ing! I was still so fucking frustrated tho, so I sympathise with you,n how long before your ear noise things can get to you? Currently in hospital myself so I understand. Flowers In fact if you’re near mine my DH would bring you anything you need! if you want to PM or say what area you’re in?Flowers

LackOfWordRecall · 14/10/2025 13:29

shit forgot to mention sumbissiins! My ill informed and non legal opinion is they are

  1. Reaching like fuck
  2. Msking themselves look right tits
  3. gifting it to Sandie surely??
I wonder what BigSond will make of it, mincemeat hopefully
thewaythatyoudoit · 14/10/2025 13:33

We shouldn’t read into the judge’s questions that he doesn’t understand. He’s looking for arguments on a point of law, and will adopt counsel’s if he likes them. It saves a lot of time for him if the lawyers have done the work and can handle the questions. NC had, JR was struggling more. Foran not worried about them and managed to just about conceal his mirth at the exchange about biological sex and what Upton’s is.
i have seen, rightly or wrongly, that the panel are meeting today and for another three to consider their decision. So here we go!

NebulousSupportPostcard · 14/10/2025 13:40

@thewaythatyoudoit "Do you want to take instruction on that?" was fabulous!

MyAmpleSheep · 14/10/2025 13:48

betterBeElwinNextIGuess · 14/10/2025 11:58

All best wishes to MyrtleLion, hope you're feeling better soon!

Re logical fallacies in the respondents' supplementary, the first one that strikes me forcefully is the one about needing to demonstrate that transwomen are statistically just like other men. Para 10:

But more fundamentally, to be successful in the indirect discrimination claim, Mrs Peggie would require the Tribunal to find as a fact that trans women are, in all respects and for all purposes, indistinguishable from cis men. [...] Again, the protected characteristic of gender reassignment simply would not exist if as a matter of fact trans women and cis men were wholly indistinguishable.

Having based some piece of law on statistical differences between men and women we do not need to reargue it for every definable subset of men. Suppose, for example, Fife had allowed a gay man, not a transwoman, into the changing room and things had proceeded as before, until in the end the argument had said instead:

But more fundamentally, to be successful in the indirect discrimination claim, Mrs Peggie would require the Tribunal to find as a fact that gay men are, in all respects and for all purposes, indistinguishable from straight men. [...] Again, the protected characteristic of sexual orientation simply would not exist if as a matter of fact gay men and straight men were wholly indistinguishable.

I don't think anyone would be tempted by that argument, but I think the two are logically parallel. There's an attempt in para 8 to suggest that it's somehow important that a transwoman "presents, to the outside world, as a woman" - but no attempt to connect that into the argument and explain what difference it makes.

Yes, that one jumped out at me.

JR wrote:

But more fundamentally, to be
successful in the indirect discrimination claim, Mrs Peggie would require the
Tribunal to find as a fact that trans women are, in all respects and for all
purposes, indistinguishable from cis men.

I think that's wrong. I think it's accurate to say that to be successful in the indirect discrimination claim Mrs Peggie would require the Tribunal to find as a fact that trans women are, for the purposes of a claim for discrimination under the EA2010, indistinguishable from cis men. And that's what the SC did find, in FWS.

JR writes:

Again, the protected
characteristic of gender reassignment simply would not exist if as a matter of
fact trans women and cis men were wholly indistinguishable.

That's not correct either. If I rewrite it as: "the protected characteristic of belief simply would not exist if as a matter of fact Jews and Muslims were wholly indistinguishable" then the nonsense becomes clear. Some of the protected characteristics depend entirely on invisible self-definition - belief, religion, gender reassignment, to some extent race - and there's nothing wrong with that. They matter for some purposes, sometimes very much, and sometimes not at all.

Brainworm · 14/10/2025 14:02

What am I not getting? Transwomen and cis men are indistinguishable by their natal sex.

Sandie Peggie was not claiming that natal sex, the indistinguishable feature, is relevant in all respects and in all purposes. Her claim is based on a changing room and getting undressed.

I know I must be missing some nuance here, the point wouldn’t be worth making if it were that easy to rebut.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 14/10/2025 14:10

It's not you, @Brainworm, it's them. The hope is that saying a stupid, simple thing in a sufficiently longwinded and complex way will lead people to exactly your conclusion that you've missed something.

In the one factor that matters for single sex changing rooms - sex - transwomen and other men are indeed identical. They are both of the sex that is not allowed in the women's.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 14/10/2025 14:13

(Even if tranwomen were some mystical third sex, the TWareTW belief that Fife now claims, they still wouldnt be women. And a single sex space is still for just one sex, however many other sex options there might be. So their argument fails not just once, but twice.)

Easytoconfuse · 14/10/2025 14:23

Coatsoff42 · 14/10/2025 13:18

If you want total privacy go live on an island for one.
Everyone else in a functioning society makes concessions around privacy.
Privacy around age and sex are not absolute because it affects others. Probably also loads of other things like infectious diseases. People don’t get accused of othering someone when they are admitted to an infectious disease ward with norovirus.

Im not as academic as half the people on here, its so frustrating how selfish it is and how long it’s dragging on for.

The problem is that all too often 'everyone else' translates to women and the disabled. How many times have you heard 'well, they can use the disabled loo' aimed at both GC and transgender people? Meanwhile, no one seems to care that the disabled have lived with the problems the transgender tiny minority are now complaining about for decades while they discuss taking even that for them to appease the TTM as I think of them.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 14/10/2025 14:23

The more I think about it, the more holes there are in the 'Sandie has to prove' line of argument.

She doesn't have to prove she's entitled to a single sex space. The workplace regs do that.

She doesn't have to prove she's permitted a single sex space. The EA does that.

She doesn't have to prove that TW aren't women for the purposes of single sex provision. FWS does that.

She doesn't have to prove that TW are in all ways identical to other men. Because that's not relevant.

The things she has to prove¹ are that Upton isn't a woman, that Fife let him use the women's provision, and that he actually did so. And both respondents have admitted all those things.

¹ For that part of the claim.

FortheloveofPetethePlumber · 14/10/2025 14:24

Easytoconfuse · 14/10/2025 14:23

The problem is that all too often 'everyone else' translates to women and the disabled. How many times have you heard 'well, they can use the disabled loo' aimed at both GC and transgender people? Meanwhile, no one seems to care that the disabled have lived with the problems the transgender tiny minority are now complaining about for decades while they discuss taking even that for them to appease the TTM as I think of them.

The hierarchy is very clear.

Interesting in a movement that spends a lot of time bellowing about the crucial value of inclusion, kindness and tolerance (do it or they'll hit you)

Hoardasurass · 14/10/2025 14:26

Contemporaneouslyagog · 13/10/2025 23:30

Yep until the Supreme Court ruling , Upton had NHS Fife over a barrel.

No he didn't the haldane ruling was clear that men with the PC of gender reassignment but does not have a GRC (like Upton) is still legally a man and has no right nor the expectation of the right to use womens single sex spaces.
Upton has always been legally and biologically male.
The haldane ruling was in 2022 and even the Scottish government accepted that fact in the supreme court case

NoBinturongsHereMate · 14/10/2025 14:27

Oh, we've got a new reaction option!

Brainworm · 14/10/2025 14:31

Pairing this with the thread about ‘warnings’ from the ECHR, it is a difficult area providers to navigate.

The law is clear about single sex provision but not about ‘the fall out’. They are being warned that excluding of transwomen from female provision denies their right to dignity and privacy. Clearly there is a conflict of interests and the denial of this is akin to ‘no debate’.

Having said that, I have no sympathy for NHSF as they have acted abysmally and should be held accountable.

Decent employers, like mine, have done a good job providing clear comms and inviting anyone for whom the single sex and gender neutral options present difficulties, to speak to their line manager or HR. This is probably the best way of navigating things until the objections are addressed in law or guidance.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 14/10/2025 14:33

What difficulties does a gender neutral option present?

Redshoeblueshoe · 14/10/2025 14:35

According to Peter Irvine on Twitter the panel are meeting today for 4 days, to start deliberating. Also in The Courier. Sorry I don't know how to do links

Brainworm · 14/10/2025 14:53

NoBinturongsHereMate · 14/10/2025 14:33

What difficulties does a gender neutral option present?

The argument being made by the ECHR is that it might deny privacy (the right to keep their natal sex private) and dignity (failure to have their gender identity recognised) to those with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

No matter which side of the argument an employer takes, if any at all, they are in a tricky position. They have clear guidance about single sex provision but not what other provision addresses the ‘dignity and privacy’ rights.

FWR posters have views about what is an acceptable offer, but that doesn’t help emplyers any more than the TRA demands.

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