Men in women’s groups.

[gingangirly]

Really unsure if I’m being unreasonable, but what do others think?

I belong to a FB group for women over 65 in my town. They have lots of get togethers, at least a couple a week. A few months ago there was a vote after a man requested to join. The overwhelming majority said no. If they want a similar group, start their own. Fair enough.

However there is a trans woman that has been welcomed with open arms. He would NOT pass as a woman, not quite a bloke in a wig but certainly you would know he was trans.

What do people think about this? Acceptable or not? I’m am totally the ‘live and let live’ but seems a bit disingenuous to ban men but not trans women?

Yeah, I'm baffled. I'm struggling to think of a current MN poster who comes across as more stereotypically masculine. It must be something other than his communication skills.

Perhaps. Honestly it's not any more deep than I simply don't mind if a trans woman wishes to join a female group I'm a member of. Its that straight forward. Having a thought about something is completely different from enforcing that thought and forcing others to follow suit.

Yes, it’s wrong, I mean it’s legally wrong, it breaches the equality act, and it will negatively affect other people, but @Anchorage56 and @gingangirly and all of us choose our ethical paths.

If the law gets involved that’s one thing, but with or without tribunals, we all live with our ethically dubious choices and have it on our consciences that we have likely fucked someone else over to make ourselves a bit more likeable (simper simper, hair twirl, I’m so cool) and not be boring and wang on defending people more vulnerable and less vocal.
Why is it always boring to be responsible for others?

I'm very happy with my ethics thank you. If I'm a member of a group with more than 25 people I'd expect the group to act according to whatever rules are in place, I just personally don't have an issue with it.

As long as you would stand up for people less vocal and more vulnerable than you, that’s fine.
I’m not personally bothered about drink driving, but I would report someone driving their kids around drunk.

You know I think I’ll decide I’m ok with drink driving and I’ll go on a thread on here and tell everyone my feelings on it are that’s it fine.

and everyone who is appalled and has lost family members to drunk driving I’ll just tell them it’s just my feelings and they should get over it!

Sorry @Taztoy it was an hypothetical argument not a real feeling.
I don’t think anyone should get over deaths from drink driving.
I just don’t think people should be so easy to pick and choose which laws they care about whether or not they harm others.

I do live in a rural area with a bit of drink driving. I don’t. But I do wish the police would be a bit stricter. If they earned fines out of it I think they would be on it a bit more.

I know. But that’s my point.

to the poster who is expounding that it’s just how they feel and it’s no big deal - it doesn’t matter to them, it’s not a big deal to them.

But. To me. I’m the equivalent of the person who had their family wiped out by a drunk driver. I’m the person who needs the single sex spaces. And I make the “don’t mind” people uncomfortable because I don’t sit down and shut up. Because I keep saying it. It is the law. You can’t do this. It is as a result of an awful thing that happened to me that I feel so strongly.

I don’t think the family of those killed by a drunk driver would be misunderstood even when posting clear posts, subjected to being tone policed, or asked (after explaining why they felt as they did) but why.

Sorry forgot to quote.

edit to add and I don’t understand why people don’t get it. Why they don’t understand how much of a violation it is. How it’s a consent issue. How it’s I SAY NO. And how slippery a slope weakening those protections is.

What is it about trans and the Supreme Court ruling that means it’s ok for people to say they’d break the law but they’d never dream of drink driving?

I don't need to stand up for anyone. People could stand up for me or not. I don't expect anything from people who don't know me, other than common courtesy and politeness. If I saw someone about to drive after drinking then I might call the police because a life or lives could be in danger.

Do you understand that my life and that of very many women like me is in danger by allowing men into women’s single sex spaces?

Why do some women not understand what please stop harassing me means.

Why do some women not understand how a forum works?

I am at risk of death if men are allowed into women’s single sex spaces.

I am at risk from a man being in the toilets and assaulting me.

I don’t know if that man is a good man who is there because he fancies going to the ladies coz it’s cleaner or he’s there to wait til it’s quiet and force through the door, lock the cubicle and rape me.

I know my fears aren’t completely rational. They’re trauma expressions.

And if the Supreme Court hadn’t clarified the situation me and people like me would be forced to relieve our trauma in front of men despite the damage that could do to our mental health.

I’ve had panic attacks in work, where we have single sex toilets completely single sex, I’ve had to leave a shop because of a man’s voice while I was in the disabled. I’ve attempted suuicide over what was done to me and it’s only the counselling that got me through it. And I wouldn’t have been able to go to counselling if there was a man there.

what am I and all those like me? Collateral damage of the feelings? And there are people who are ok with that?

drink driver that’s me. I don’t have a problem with it. Why would anyone have issues with it. Sit down and get over it.

Like a hunting dog and a hare

I’m interested in your answer @Anchorage56 as I was like you in my thinking of live and let live but the more I read on the subject and start to see how self ID can affect women’s rights and safety I have changed my mind.
So I’m curious about your answer re the man wanting to join your group (who now says he is a trans woman ) is refused because you think he’s just trying it on, does it not give you pause for thought over your standpoint as I think it was these sort of conundrums that made me think things through and question my viewpoint

No it doesn't. I think that's an insult to trans people to suggest they are trying it on

I’m really interested in how my distress is completely disregarded and why it is deemed irrelevant and how one tells the difference between a trans woman who is “trying it on” and one who isn’t.

And also really interested in how easily the concept of consent being inviolate is dismantled to accommodate men who don’t like being told no.

Does it matter if they consider it an insult?

Am i not waiting on you answering a question of mine ?

@Anchorage56 but you were the one who said you wouldn’t accept the chap who had been refused joining if he announced he was now self IDing as a woman so why do you say I’m insulting trans people?

Do you really think men trying it on by pretending to be trans is happening very often?

How do I know the difference?

If you can't see that a man being refused joining then turning around putting a bit of lippy on and declaring he was trans is absolute bollocks, then I hope you have assistance in every day life.

Do you need to if it isn’t actually a real concern?