"Right or Left, I want No Part in Extremism" - Milli Hill

[WhereDidSummerGoAgain]

A thoughtful article by Milli Hill today.

https://millihill.substack.com/p/right-or-left-i-want-no-part-of-extremism

I can't help but find myself agreeing with her.

I know there's been a lot of debate on here about Kelly-Jay and whether she supports the far right.

Milli's article links to a Twitter post by Tommy Robinson showing an event and his inner circle. Kelly-Jay is there, dressed in a Union Jack.

This is pretty conclusive now, isn't it? You don't go and hang out with racists like Tommy Robinson and pals in times like these if you don't support them, surely?!

Milli's stood up for Kelly-Jay before, but this is a step too far for her, and for me too.

Just wondering what others think? This really doesn't look like a mistake this time.

I'm not sure if this is a genuine question or your world view is so narrow that you don't seem to understand that people of many races have long been tolerated in far right groups or fascist events when they're in line with the groups politics? Of course even racists will welcome a black Nigerian in a st George's flag regardless of the beliefs they hold about that person being inherently less human because they know it will do exactly.what you're doing now - give them a tiny shield of saying "see we aren't racist, we have our token black person who doesn't actually mind us talking about great replacement theory". Likewise you'll always find women as members of misogynistic causes, that doesn't mean the men don't think those women's are below them, it just means they're happy to have them there so they look more palatable while they work on a cause that's ultimately going to harm themselves. Would a black Nigerian have been able to walk through unbothered were they wearing a Nigerian flag? Or been a counter protector? Or a passerby even? Not so much.

You are perfectly at liberty to watch or not watch whatever you like, but debating seems to be a little pointless if you refuse to consider evidence that people are telling you will prove you wrong.

This is an ironic comment given your starting premise is already not based on real world evidence. TR is and has been for years a far right agitator and has founded far right groups and been a member of them. I'm not going to "debate" anyone who's denying that as a fact.

I have already googled this earlier in the week (in order to try to get an official definition), I was asking for you take not google's.

This is what wiki says

"The original theory states that, with the complicity or cooperation of "replacist" elites, the ethnic French and white European populations at large are being demographically and culturally replaced by non-white peoples—especially from uslim-majority countries—through mass migration, demographic growth and a drop in the birth rate of white Europeans".

Is the ethnic minority population rising due to immigration and birth rates of immigrants vs natives? Yes
Are a significant percentage of those immigrants muslim? I cannot prove this, but I believe yes (not that yes is required)
Are elites in control of the country that is allowing this to happen (thus proving that they are complicit)? Yes

I am someone who does not believe that facts are racist.

I cannot see how one can deny the theory unless one ignores the facts.

You can argue whether or not it is racist to be concerned about the culture, religion (and likely, long term) human rights of your country disappearing. You can argue whether policies brought in as a response to the theory are racist. But the theory is not racist because it's not racist to observe facts.

It is not racist to say that Spaniards spread disease in South America when they colonized. It is not racist to say that Mayan human sacrifice was horrific. It is not racist to say that the white population of South Africa did horrific things to blacks under apartheid, not is it racist to say that the black on white attacks in south Africa today - not least on farmers - is also horrific.

"I'm not sure if this is a genuine question or your world view is so narrow that you don't seem to understand that people of many races have long been tolerated in far right groups or fascist events when they're in line with the groups politics?"

So you're saying that Shady Shae is a very naive or stupid black man who can't see he's being played by people who despise him for being inferior due to skin colour?

I accept that's a possibility, but on the other hand he seems like a nice, ordinary, fairly intelligent guy to me, not some stupid fool being played. But then again I'm the one judging a black man based on lots of evidence (hours of viedo footage he has taken where he is meeting people and talking to them), whereas you're judging him based on the company he keeps so you're probably right and I'm probably worng.

That's it, I'm 99% out. Here are some of the youtubers that I watched, male and female, black and white, straight and gay are all represented - a wide range of people who took hours of footage mingling with and talking to the crowd.

MKR Audits
Mybrakesdontwork
Shady Shae
DJE Media
Edge of the Matrix

If you can watch the footage of both sides and not conclude that the antifa lot are nasty, aggressive, violent and have so little a point that they refuse to answer questions about why they are there, then I am surprised. Likewise if you cannot see that the patriotic side had plenty of ethnic minorities, was full of women and children, not just men, was full of joy and laughter and positivity, then I can't help you.

I can write you a detailed definition of what far right means to me and why i think SYL and most of the speakers fit it if you want Jamie. But it would be long and I dont have the time to do it now so it would be much later tonight. But if you are genuinely interested happy to do so. However It suspect the response will be deliberate misunderstanding and 😂😂😂emojis. Which is why people have stopped answering those questions/or started saying look it up yourself. They no longer feel like good faith questions to understand the other persons POV. It's not because noone can answer the question.

Uhh god ok,.if you really want to try and argue that the great replacement theory isn't inherently racist then you need to reread what you just wrote and immigrants and natives...who is being replaced and what's a native? Because you're already beginning from the premise that people native to British are not white and that's it's a problem for a non white population to be increasing..it's not about facts not being racist, it's about the starting premise of great replacement theory requiring there to be the existence of a racial hierarchy and a particular race has to be "protected". You're already starting from the premise that being of an "ethnic minority" and being British are mutually exclusive. Literally you could just go and listen to the speeches of the rally you're defending as I advised you to.

It's also literally a white nationalist conspiracy theory and not a fact, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you don't know that.

Why can't you just answer any of the questions I've asked you? Your very long initial post was vey definitive that there was no racism extremism or hatred on the rally and I suggested possibly the article author did see the fascist chants, speakers and the organisers histories that you so clearly missed?

Did you answer if you were a bloke or did I miss that?

I don't know who shady shae is so I made no comment on them in particular but yes if you're a Black Nigerian supporting groups with a white nationalist aim you are being played by people who desire you for being inferior.

"Company he keeps" it's not his mates form bowling that he has a relationship with separate from their rallies where they talk about the woe of the white race being replaced is it?

You seem genuinely surprised that people are ever part of causes that hurt their own interests or that hurt their peers while they're protected?

I just don't see why far right needs to be defined for people when they're talking about groups or people who already fit the definition we have of far right. I could understand it being asked where someone's using the term and there's no recognisable evidence of the traits of the far right but this is asked in bad faith when someones objectively a far right.

I will list some things I think align with the far / hard right and what I believe the people on the march supported. Try watching people in the march, talking to protestors, and see if you agree with my perception?

Hard Right vs The March

Racism vs all nationalities and skin colours welcome

Blind nationalism and war-mongering vs pride in British liberal and democratic values and no desire for war

Authoritarianism vs free speech being one of the key things the marchers were marching in support of

Two tier justice where "in groups" get treated better than "out groups" vs a hatred of two tier justice

Anti-communism vs anti-communism. Definitely a point of alignment. But I note there are plenty of people who oppose communism who are not far right

Ultraconservatism vs progressive people who support women and LGB but oppose the regressive ideology known as "woke" / CSJ (incl TQ+ and BLM)

"Key to the far-right worldview is the notion of societal purity, often invoking ideas of a homogeneous community" vs we welcome anyone who shares our western liberal democratic values that are based in our judeo-christian values

Also @JamieCannister we're black people not "blacks". Just a slip of the tongue I'm sure but still perpetuates dehumanising Black people.

And yet the organisers and the speakers were all from your agreed definition of far right...? But to call it such is wrong? And everyone there was there despite it? Sure.

That is where you are completely wrong.

It was not a white nationalist march, hence why Shady Shae was universally welcomed as he spent hours walking amongs the people you dismiss as racists.

You have no idea at all what you;re talking about, none whatsoever.

I genuinely believe that you are the biggest racist on this thread given your claim that Shady Shae is definitely being played as opposed to being an intelligent black man perfectly capable of judging good people from bad people. That you could be so racist towards him despite not having any idea about the march he was aligned with makes it all the more astonishing.

On this point
Racism vs all nationalities and skin colours welcome

ISIS was all nationalities and skin colours welcome. What lovely tolerant people. They were still an (extreme example) of a far right/extremist organisation. Just the point of zero tolerance was based around religion, not skin colour. You can have far right ideologies based on not liking Jews (Oswald Mosely) not liking black people (also Oswald Mosely but in the 70s and the old school NF) or on not liking Islam.

You can have far right movements that welcome all religions in theory but consider people with the wrong shaped belly button to be fundamentally incompatible with the values of the country and a threat to the purity of the nations bloodlines.

Most generally far right ideology focus on race or religion or some mixture of the two.

SYL is not just anti Islamism (most people are) but has consistently painted Muslims in general as the enemy.

Who am I being racist against please? I don't understand and you're gonna have to give me an example or revoke that personal attack of me as "the biggest racist" because I'm pointing out that many a time in history has someone sided with their oppressors? Am I misogynistic if I call out women who participate in misogynistic practices like FGM?

I'm just gonna quote again your original point:
What extreme nationalism, racism and xenophobia happened on the streets of London last Saturday? Are you making stuff up?

To which I detailed the organisers themselves being members of far right extreme nationalist parties, the chanting of NF slogans and speakers spouting white nationalist conspiracy theories.

No, I'm coming from the position that if people come to the UK from Poland or Nigeria they are not native Britains. But that they can still be 100% welcomed as British if they embrace the country and share British values

As for saying "blacks" - I understand why certain terms are considered offensive, but I'm not sure what makes "black people" so much better than "blacks" and look forward to the day when I will be told "black people" is racist and out of date and the latest term is brought in. But yes, it was a slip, I suspect perhaps related to how I recall black people were probably referred to in news reports from South africa 40 years ago

Their children born here are though which is another thing these guys disagree btw. And regardless of if they're native to Britain, once they've got British Citizenship they are British. Arguing that they're somehow a lesser status to other British people because of their ethnicity or background is democratic how?

I'm not sure that saying you refer to Black people they were referred to under apartheid is helping your point.

I think it is racist to suggest someone is stupid or naive and allying with their oppressors when you have no idea what the people who you claim are his oppressors beliee (as evidence by the nonsense you have written on this thread).

I think a non-racist position would be to sit on the fence until you learn more, or just give the guy the benefit of the doubt.

I do understand why someone from an ethnic minority would be concerned, however, not least if they had followed the outrageously dishonest coverage in places like the BBC, a disgusting organisation who everyone should know cannot be trusted, but not least someone on this board who must know that the BBC think men can be women.

There was at least one black person there who - when I saw them interviewed - basically said "I like some of what Tommy Robinson has to say. Other stuff not so much. I'm here to see what it's all about". What that black man a fascist?

And regardless of if they're native to Britain, once they've got British Citizenship they are British.

They're not ethnically British though.

Was he wrapped in a union jack?
And yes, black people can be fascists - I'm not saying this person is because I haven't seen photos or read other comments they've made, as I have in the case of Kjk.

No he wasn't. No symbols, flags IIRC

This thread is mindblowing. It’s hard to believe we’re at the point where it’s controversial to describe Tommy Robinson as right wing.

His entire career has been built around far right activism and open racism yet this forum is now treating that fact as something debatable and is piling on anyone who states the obvious.

The accepted line on Mumsnet FWR now appears to be that Tommy Robinson is not racist, let alone far right. And anyone who says otherwise is treated as unreasonable, dishonest or a troublemaker.

You seem to be suggesting that because a black person was at a fascist march then it can't be a fascist march.

The accepted line on Mumsnet FWR now appears to be that Tommy Robinson is not racist, let alone far right.

Tommy wants to protect women and girls, explain to me how that is not in line with a women's rights forum?