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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Right or Left, I want No Part in Extremism" - Milli Hill

500 replies

WhereDidSummerGoAgain · 15/09/2025 17:57

A thoughtful article by Milli Hill today.

https://millihill.substack.com/p/right-or-left-i-want-no-part-of-extremism

I can't help but find myself agreeing with her.

I know there's been a lot of debate on here about Kelly-Jay and whether she supports the far right.

Milli's article links to a Twitter post by Tommy Robinson showing an event and his inner circle. Kelly-Jay is there, dressed in a Union Jack.

This is pretty conclusive now, isn't it? You don't go and hang out with racists like Tommy Robinson and pals in times like these if you don't support them, surely?!

Milli's stood up for Kelly-Jay before, but this is a step too far for her, and for me too.

Just wondering what others think? This really doesn't look like a mistake this time.

Right or left, I want no part of extremism

And as a gender critical woman, I want to firmly distance myself from it

https://millihill.substack.com/p/right-or-left-i-want-no-part-of-extremism

OP posts:
Thread gallery
19
Lottapianos · 19/09/2025 18:20

'Tommy wants to protect women and girls, explain to me how that is not in line with a women's rights forum?'

🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🙄🙄🙄

Yelleryeller · 19/09/2025 18:33

JamieCannister · 19/09/2025 17:38

I think it is racist to suggest someone is stupid or naive and allying with their oppressors when you have no idea what the people who you claim are his oppressors beliee (as evidence by the nonsense you have written on this thread).

I think a non-racist position would be to sit on the fence until you learn more, or just give the guy the benefit of the doubt.

I do understand why someone from an ethnic minority would be concerned, however, not least if they had followed the outrageously dishonest coverage in places like the BBC, a disgusting organisation who everyone should know cannot be trusted, but not least someone on this board who must know that the BBC think men can be women.

I think it is racist to suggest someone is stupid or naive and allying with their oppressors when you have no idea what the people who you claim are his oppressors beliee (as evidence by the nonsense you have written on this thread).
Huh? I have no idea what the people I'm claiming his oppressors are believe? Except we actually do know very well the beliefs of these far right groups and they were sharing it in their speeches. Calling someone stupid or naive for tokenizing themselves and supporting people who think they're inherently less worthy isn't racist again him in any way - again please explain how? It's very bizarre that you seem unable to recognise blatant racism such as equating Britishness with Whiteness but you can see racism where it isn't.

I think a non-racist position would be to sit on the fence until you learn more, or just give the guy the benefit of the doubt.

Again what guy? Are you talking about TR or this Shady person that I've already told you I don't know who they are and I'm not gonna watch their YouTube video. I mentioned that people regularly support their oppressors such as women participating in FGM, because you tried to point to their attendance as proof that all the nationalist racist groups somehow weren't racist because a Black man attended?

Yelleryeller · 19/09/2025 18:34

aintgonnarain · 19/09/2025 18:18

The accepted line on Mumsnet FWR now appears to be that Tommy Robinson is not racist, let alone far right.

Tommy wants to protect women and girls, explain to me how that is not in line with a women's rights forum?

Shame about all the get your tits out singing and the attendees having DV priors, it's not really enough to claim that's your purpose when no evidence points to it.

Yelleryeller · 19/09/2025 18:34

aintgonnarain · 19/09/2025 17:48

And regardless of if they're native to Britain, once they've got British Citizenship they are British.

They're not ethnically British though.

What do you mean by ethnically British? Define that.

FuckOffWithYourEllipses · 19/09/2025 18:36

There have also been comments expressing that Posie Parker’s participation in the Unite The Kingdom rally has nothing to do with her gender critical activism and therefore sends no wider political signals.

But public alignment IS symbolic. When someone like Posie Parker - the main figurehead of one of the best known gender critical pressure groups - publicly endorses and shares a platform with the far right, it sends a message. Which is that gender critical activists (whether they describe themselves as feminists or not) are comfortable sharing space with right wing extremism.

This isn’t neutral. It’s deeply disturbing.

Yelleryeller · 19/09/2025 19:00

deadpan · 19/09/2025 18:09

You seem to be suggesting that because a black person was at a fascist march then it can't be a fascist march.

That's exactly what he's suggesting meaning he's either ignorant of or pretending to be ignorant of the precedent of there being people who join fascist groups because they've either internalised the ideology against themselves or woefully think the regime won't turn on them as an individual if they've been supportive.

JamieCannister · 19/09/2025 19:12

FuckOffWithYourEllipses · 19/09/2025 18:09

This thread is mindblowing. It’s hard to believe we’re at the point where it’s controversial to describe Tommy Robinson as right wing.

His entire career has been built around far right activism and open racism yet this forum is now treating that fact as something debatable and is piling on anyone who states the obvious.

The accepted line on Mumsnet FWR now appears to be that Tommy Robinson is not racist, let alone far right. And anyone who says otherwise is treated as unreasonable, dishonest or a troublemaker.

We are discussing whether he has hard right / fascist views, not whether he is right wing. What are his economic policies? Are they right or left wing?

JamieCannister · 19/09/2025 19:15

deadpan · 19/09/2025 18:09

You seem to be suggesting that because a black person was at a fascist march then it can't be a fascist march.

No, I'm suggesting that if a black person was at a patriotic right-wing free-speech anti-mass immigration, pro-immigrants-integrating march, and that he was getting love from tons of people including Robinson himself despite black skin and an accent which suggest foreign birth, that suggests it can't be a racist / hard right / fascist march.

Imnobody4 · 19/09/2025 19:35

For heaven's sake. Tommy Robinson is small fry. If you want to talk about extremism/totalitarianism etc he can't compare to the greats of Idi Amin, Sadam Hussein, Gaddafi, Assad, the Ayatollahs, not to mention Stalin, Mao, Pinochet, Mladic.

You really need to start listening and empathising - if you don't understand how other people see things you have no chance of persuading them.

UtopiaPlanitia · 19/09/2025 19:42

I read an interesting blog post by Scottish campaigner/journalist Robin McAlpine discussing the UTK march. I think it’s relevant to the topic we’re discussing. I also think McAlpine has more of an idea as to why people marched than Milli Hill seems to. I pasted some interesting bits below:

http://robinmcalpine.org/politics-as-usual-has-absolutely-no-story-to-tell-us-about-our-future/

THE Unite the Kingdom march has unnerved me deeply. Or rather, it is a visible demonstration of what has been unnerving me for a while. We’re losing the political debate to the hard right – and I think we have precisely one chance to turn this around.

Because I am equally unnerved by the response. Those who oppose hard and far-right politics are seeking to use techniques from a different era – appeals to reason by summits of establishment elites, attempts at quarantine and isolation, moral broadsides.

None of this is working or has any chance of working. Elite lectures are the problem, not the solution. Isolation is over; it isn’t possible now. Trying to persuade people out of this by telling them they’re bad people is only making things worse.

There is only one possible solution – we need to tell a better story about people’s lives. We have given up even pretending that the lives of an awful lot of people in this country are going to get better.

Instead, we tell them stories about how life is going to get better for those for whom life is already good – landlords, chief executives, financiers, quango types. When the Scottish Government says “GDP growth is the number one priority”, that doesn’t mean us. It doesn’t mean citizens.

We are still living off trickle-down economics. What do we get out of GDP growth? Better public services, apparently. Do the politicians know that GDP has been growing almost uninterrupted for 40 years? When’s it going to work?

We see the wealthy get special treatment, but we don’t see our public services getting better and we don’t see our wages rising. The professional management classes (the people who actually run the country and its economy) do well out of this. Everyone else?

…This is the problem; politics as usual has absolutely no story about our future. The only future they can see is the present with some tweaks. Politicians of almost all stripes have bought into the idea that politics is just a technocratic management process which involves “choices” based on “values”, but only at the margins.

Otherwise, they simply audition as the best candidate to manage the machine. All that politics does now is that every five years it shuffles the faces telling you that GDP is the only thing that really matters, each election the vainglorious pursuit of a better manager.

Brown would manage things better than Blair, who fixed Major’s messes, until Cameron arrived to manage Brown’s mistakes away. May would repair what Cameron did, Johnson would repair what all of them did. Truss basically did an extreme version of the same which Sunak had to “fix” before the solution was Starmer – which now has its own solution in Burnham…

…And the ruling class’s latest wheeze? Rapidly destroy jobs so the rich can get much, much richer. They call it AI. It is going to free up your leisure time – with which you can forage for food.

All of this is playing with fire and has been for a long time. None of it is truthful. It is not true that GDP growth will lead to better public services if the owners of that growth export it abroad.

…The left has been little better, a whine about all the things we want stopped, tinged with a significant degree of disdain for those who don’t have our university education. Environmentalists seem to have a view of the future which is “this, but with some of the things that make you happy taken away”.

…At this point, a lecture or a stern telling-off or a boycott is utterly pointless. Saying “GDP’ to them is contemptuous.

If we can’t persuade them we give half a damn about them and their lives, and that we’ve got some kind of plan for making their lives better which stretches a lot further than “we’ll make the rich richer first and see what happens”, this horror will be our future.

Politics as usual has absolutely no story to tell us about our future | RobinMcAlpine.org

http://robinmcalpine.org/politics-as-usual-has-absolutely-no-story-to-tell-us-about-our-future/

aintgonnarain · 19/09/2025 19:45

FuckOffWithYourEllipses · 19/09/2025 18:36

There have also been comments expressing that Posie Parker’s participation in the Unite The Kingdom rally has nothing to do with her gender critical activism and therefore sends no wider political signals.

But public alignment IS symbolic. When someone like Posie Parker - the main figurehead of one of the best known gender critical pressure groups - publicly endorses and shares a platform with the far right, it sends a message. Which is that gender critical activists (whether they describe themselves as feminists or not) are comfortable sharing space with right wing extremism.

This isn’t neutral. It’s deeply disturbing.

What has Kellie-Jay campaigning to keep muslim men away from our girls got to do with being far-right? She does it for the same reason as her gender critical campaigning - to keep women and girls safe.

deadpan · 19/09/2025 20:06

JamieCannister · 19/09/2025 19:15

No, I'm suggesting that if a black person was at a patriotic right-wing free-speech anti-mass immigration, pro-immigrants-integrating march, and that he was getting love from tons of people including Robinson himself despite black skin and an accent which suggest foreign birth, that suggests it can't be a racist / hard right / fascist march.

What difference does it make that the black person was getting "love from tons of people".
A right wing march is a right wing march, whether or not there are different ethnicities that take part. There are black people who support Trump, but that doesn't mean he isn't right wing.

FuckOffWithYourEllipses · 19/09/2025 20:07

aintgonnarain · 19/09/2025 19:45

What has Kellie-Jay campaigning to keep muslim men away from our girls got to do with being far-right? She does it for the same reason as her gender critical campaigning - to keep women and girls safe.

Framing Muslim men as a uniquely dangerous group is exactly what makes this far right.

Male violence is a problem across all communities but singling out one religion (and by implication, ethnicity ie Asian or Middle Eastern) is racist scapegoating.

Thats why Posie Parker’s alignment with Tommy Robinson isn’t just about women’s safety, it’s about the othering and scapegoating of particular religions/ethnicities. Which is a fundamental aspect of the far right.

deadpan · 19/09/2025 20:11

aintgonnarain · 19/09/2025 18:18

The accepted line on Mumsnet FWR now appears to be that Tommy Robinson is not racist, let alone far right.

Tommy wants to protect women and girls, explain to me how that is not in line with a women's rights forum?

The thing with "Tommy" wanting to protect women and girls, is that he only seems to car when the perpetrators are not white. When they are white, we don't hear a peep.

Ketzele · 19/09/2025 20:12

I guess I'm not 'ethnically British' but it never occurred to me till this year that I, born and raised in England, was in some kind of subcategory of Britishness. Equally, I didnt know I had to 'love my country' and 'uphold British values' to be allowed to be considered British. I thought I just was, unconditionally. Silly me.

Ketzele · 19/09/2025 20:18

The salient point about the great replacement theory is that it contains the element of conspiracy, as in non-white peoples are being brought in purposefully to overwhelm and subjugate white people. Traditionally, the conspirators were supposed to be Jews. Today, who knows, given that in many ways Muslims are the new Jews.

It's really not just alist of facts about immigration and birth rates.

Signalbox · 19/09/2025 20:20

FuckOffWithYourEllipses · 19/09/2025 20:07

Framing Muslim men as a uniquely dangerous group is exactly what makes this far right.

Male violence is a problem across all communities but singling out one religion (and by implication, ethnicity ie Asian or Middle Eastern) is racist scapegoating.

Thats why Posie Parker’s alignment with Tommy Robinson isn’t just about women’s safety, it’s about the othering and scapegoating of particular religions/ethnicities. Which is a fundamental aspect of the far right.

It’s nothing to do with ethnicity. It’s to do with culture and tribalism. Male violence against women is a problem across all societies but it is demonstrably more of a problem in other parts of the world than here.

Ketzele · 19/09/2025 20:24

As for Tommy R wanting to protect women and girls, give me a break. He and his goons are like the hard men who get all principled about violence against women when they're beating up nonces on B Wing, then get released and put their wives in prison.

Most men protect 'their' women, don't they? As a woman who has travelled through life without a father or male partners, I have never found men in general particularly interested in protecting me.

JamieCannister · 19/09/2025 20:37

UtopiaPlanitia · 19/09/2025 19:42

I read an interesting blog post by Scottish campaigner/journalist Robin McAlpine discussing the UTK march. I think it’s relevant to the topic we’re discussing. I also think McAlpine has more of an idea as to why people marched than Milli Hill seems to. I pasted some interesting bits below:

http://robinmcalpine.org/politics-as-usual-has-absolutely-no-story-to-tell-us-about-our-future/

THE Unite the Kingdom march has unnerved me deeply. Or rather, it is a visible demonstration of what has been unnerving me for a while. We’re losing the political debate to the hard right – and I think we have precisely one chance to turn this around.

Because I am equally unnerved by the response. Those who oppose hard and far-right politics are seeking to use techniques from a different era – appeals to reason by summits of establishment elites, attempts at quarantine and isolation, moral broadsides.

None of this is working or has any chance of working. Elite lectures are the problem, not the solution. Isolation is over; it isn’t possible now. Trying to persuade people out of this by telling them they’re bad people is only making things worse.

There is only one possible solution – we need to tell a better story about people’s lives. We have given up even pretending that the lives of an awful lot of people in this country are going to get better.

Instead, we tell them stories about how life is going to get better for those for whom life is already good – landlords, chief executives, financiers, quango types. When the Scottish Government says “GDP growth is the number one priority”, that doesn’t mean us. It doesn’t mean citizens.

We are still living off trickle-down economics. What do we get out of GDP growth? Better public services, apparently. Do the politicians know that GDP has been growing almost uninterrupted for 40 years? When’s it going to work?

We see the wealthy get special treatment, but we don’t see our public services getting better and we don’t see our wages rising. The professional management classes (the people who actually run the country and its economy) do well out of this. Everyone else?

…This is the problem; politics as usual has absolutely no story about our future. The only future they can see is the present with some tweaks. Politicians of almost all stripes have bought into the idea that politics is just a technocratic management process which involves “choices” based on “values”, but only at the margins.

Otherwise, they simply audition as the best candidate to manage the machine. All that politics does now is that every five years it shuffles the faces telling you that GDP is the only thing that really matters, each election the vainglorious pursuit of a better manager.

Brown would manage things better than Blair, who fixed Major’s messes, until Cameron arrived to manage Brown’s mistakes away. May would repair what Cameron did, Johnson would repair what all of them did. Truss basically did an extreme version of the same which Sunak had to “fix” before the solution was Starmer – which now has its own solution in Burnham…

…And the ruling class’s latest wheeze? Rapidly destroy jobs so the rich can get much, much richer. They call it AI. It is going to free up your leisure time – with which you can forage for food.

All of this is playing with fire and has been for a long time. None of it is truthful. It is not true that GDP growth will lead to better public services if the owners of that growth export it abroad.

…The left has been little better, a whine about all the things we want stopped, tinged with a significant degree of disdain for those who don’t have our university education. Environmentalists seem to have a view of the future which is “this, but with some of the things that make you happy taken away”.

…At this point, a lecture or a stern telling-off or a boycott is utterly pointless. Saying “GDP’ to them is contemptuous.

If we can’t persuade them we give half a damn about them and their lives, and that we’ve got some kind of plan for making their lives better which stretches a lot further than “we’ll make the rich richer first and see what happens”, this horror will be our future.

Edited

I agree with all of this.

I would add that I still think half the country (at least) have concerns about the levels of immigration and the character of some immigrants, and that it would take a 5 year mega-boom (which is not happening any time soon) to make them forget. And even that might not work.

Signalbox · 19/09/2025 20:38

Ketzele · 19/09/2025 20:12

I guess I'm not 'ethnically British' but it never occurred to me till this year that I, born and raised in England, was in some kind of subcategory of Britishness. Equally, I didnt know I had to 'love my country' and 'uphold British values' to be allowed to be considered British. I thought I just was, unconditionally. Silly me.

People are just talking shit. How would most of us even know if we were “Ethnically British” anyway? Or do people just mean white when they say that? It doesn’t make any sense.

JamieCannister · 19/09/2025 20:42

deadpan · 19/09/2025 20:06

What difference does it make that the black person was getting "love from tons of people".
A right wing march is a right wing march, whether or not there are different ethnicities that take part. There are black people who support Trump, but that doesn't mean he isn't right wing.

No-one is saying it's not right wing. The question is did 150,000 fascists and racists and extremists march last weekend. The answer is no.

Were there racists there and speakers with idiotic views - yes, not least Musk (who IMHO is a free speech hero, but otherwise an utter fool)? Were the participants mainly decent people with reasonable concerns and a positive vision for the UK? Yes, is my view based on hours of watching citizen journalism on youtube

JamieCannister · 19/09/2025 20:45

FuckOffWithYourEllipses · 19/09/2025 20:07

Framing Muslim men as a uniquely dangerous group is exactly what makes this far right.

Male violence is a problem across all communities but singling out one religion (and by implication, ethnicity ie Asian or Middle Eastern) is racist scapegoating.

Thats why Posie Parker’s alignment with Tommy Robinson isn’t just about women’s safety, it’s about the othering and scapegoating of particular religions/ethnicities. Which is a fundamental aspect of the far right.

Facts are not racist.

We all know all communities have massive issues with misogyny and sexual violence. That doesn't mean muslim men (incl settled communities and illegal immigrant from specific countries) aren't a specific and big issue.

No-one is stopping you tackling white or hindu or japanese specific sexual violence

UtopiaPlanitia · 19/09/2025 20:47

JamieCannister · 19/09/2025 20:37

I agree with all of this.

I would add that I still think half the country (at least) have concerns about the levels of immigration and the character of some immigrants, and that it would take a 5 year mega-boom (which is not happening any time soon) to make them forget. And even that might not work.

I agree and I think that the inability of successive governments to plan & enact sensible infrastructure and civic development/renewal definitely holds back any chance of a boom. Modern politicians seem to have forgotten the concept of investment in these essential areas of civic life & economic underpinnings. They’re all firmly wedded to that annoying management credo of ‘do more with less’.

JamieCannister · 19/09/2025 20:49

Ketzele · 19/09/2025 20:18

The salient point about the great replacement theory is that it contains the element of conspiracy, as in non-white peoples are being brought in purposefully to overwhelm and subjugate white people. Traditionally, the conspirators were supposed to be Jews. Today, who knows, given that in many ways Muslims are the new Jews.

It's really not just alist of facts about immigration and birth rates.

If the GRT specifically contains "conspiracy" elements then I am not sure I can agree with it (because I try to keep my mind a little open if I am fairly sure).

But it is clear the people in power are rich and benefit from cheaper labour resulting from mass immigration, whilst ordinary people face suppressed wages. It isn't a conspiracy, but it is the powerful imposing their vision on workers. (I am left wing).

And the definition I read did not even include conspiracy as a feature. It is about whether the white population is being replaced by immigrants and it is based on population changes and birth rates.

JamieCannister · 19/09/2025 20:50

Signalbox · 19/09/2025 20:20

It’s nothing to do with ethnicity. It’s to do with culture and tribalism. Male violence against women is a problem across all societies but it is demonstrably more of a problem in other parts of the world than here.

100%. Which is precisely why a Christian, liberal, open minded, black Nigerian immigrant who embraces what it is to be British is 100% welcome at a UTK march (watch him on youtube - Shady Shae)

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